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000-J03 exam Dumps Source : IBM Sys I Entry plane for BPs - Tech. Mastery Test V1

Test Code : 000-J03
Test appellation : IBM Sys I Entry plane for BPs - Tech. Mastery Test V1
Vendor appellation : IBM
: 74 actual Questions

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IBM IBM Sys I Entry

Counting The can permeate Of IBM i On Power9 Entry methods | killexams.com actual Questions and Pass4sure dumps

April 9, 2018 Timothy Prickett Morgan

anytime there is a Moore’s legislations help in processing, even if corporations permeate by using the core or by the socket, there's cost reduce – in concept at least – for techniques utility. here is undoubted if the chip maker decides to goose the efficiency of the cores or add greater cores to a socket, or each on the equal time.

in the past a number of generations of power processors used in the energy methods line, IBM has executed each. because the methods application is in line with cores, youngsters, the flow from two to four to eight to 12 cores per socket has no longer meant a consequent discount within the rate of utility such because the IBM i platform and its built-in database management equipment. however the performance of cores, via a coalesce of clock speeds and architectural improvements, has often long gone up era to generation, and with the jump from the Power8 to the vigour 9, the foundation improvement, core for core and at clock speeds usually used in Power8 and Power9 configurations is somewhere between 30 p.c and 50 p.c, as IBM explained to us on the Power9 “ZZ” systems launch lower back in February. The raw performance of the structure, normalized for a socket and at a baseline clock hurry they reckon is around four GHz, become someplace between 50 percent and 95 %, reckoning on the workload, IBM divulged returned in the summer of 2016 when the Power9 structure turned into previewed to the chip illuminati.

a yoke of weeks in the past, they drilled down into the price/performance of the brand new ZZ systems in foundation hardware configurations as in comparison to the prior technology of Power8 entry equipment, which which you could review here. The configured machines, which might live in response to the processor configurations that IBM used to attain its industrial performance Workload (CPW) benchmark examine plus an affordable amount of reminiscence and disk, can permeate anywhere from $12,641 for an influence S914 with four cores running at 2.3 GHz, 64 GB of leading remembrance and four 600 GB disk drives to $ninety nine,290 for an influence S924 with 24 cores running at 3.4 GHz, 768 GB of remembrance and those 4 foundation 600 GB disks. The bang for the buck on the vigour S914, vigour S922, and power S924 machines had a extremely tense latitude of between 23 cents and 27 cents per CPW. The funds on Power8 materiel – the dash S814, vigour S822, and energy S824 – changed into nearly the same, but the cost per CPW on the machines had a much better and broader latitude, from a low of 25 cents per CPW for a hefty configuration of the energy S822 to a elevated of sixty six cents per CPW for a midline vigour S824.

To drudgery out what the bottom software costs acquire been on these two sets of entry dash programs machines, they discovered what OS/400 and IBM i application tier every configuration changed into in, after which dug round to come by the per-core pricing for IBM i. They took out the ninety days of software preservation (SWMA) it is covered with the bottom energy S814 and energy S914 machines to design it reminiscent of the relaxation of the machines, which shouldn't acquire any SWMA bundled. outright vigour programs machines running IBM i require that a 12 months of SWMA, at least, live configured to them, however they are ignoring this for now. They are only attempting to segregate the charges of the utility. They configured IBM i on the entire cores, that are outright activated on the machines by course of default nascence with the Power9 iron. IBM i has a foundation one-time perpetual license cost, and then there is a per-user cost of $250 a person on proper of that. They brought this person can permeate in, reckoning that someplace around 5,000 CPWs per user is representative of the number of clients on a customary computing device in these classes. (We don't suppose that businesses basically allocate this a fine deal CPW to clients, however their database and batch jobs could require that tons oomph even though their on-line transaction processing workloads don't.) i can don't forget when it appeared dote 500 CPWs or 1,000 CPWs per person changed into an nefarious lot.

here is how the Power8 entry machines appear:

definitely, the energy S812L and dash S822L machines, which might live Linux-only packing containers, can not live loaded up with IBM i. They left the Linux-most effectual machines in right here for continuity with the hardware pricing they did a number of weeks ago. The CPW ratings are their estimates for these configurations, and different estimates are additionally proven in daring red. On the P05-class vigour S814 computer, the can permeate of the bottom IBM i license is $7,985 across those 4 cores, and with the sixteen users shown, the cost rises to $eleven,985. This works out to 30 cents per CPW for the utility – a cramped bit lower than the can permeate of the hardware on a cost per CPW basis. here is the most effectual time that occurs, so don’t come by excited. (And if they added even a number of more clients to the machine, it will now not live real.)

Hardware charges upward thrust as machines come by greater potent, but software charges upward thrust even quicker, as that you could espy from the above desk. that you can furthermore espy the outcome of the utilize of machines with loads of cores running at reduce clock speeds on IBM i pricing. truly, don’t try this. come by the quickest cores which you could and come by as few of them as that you could is their most useful advice.

How plenty extra costly is the hardware than the utility? That is contingent upon the computing device, however the reply to that query is often: a lot more. grasp a look:

This indicates the cost per CPW of the hardware configurations they ginned up just a few weeks ago against the bottom IBM i configuration proven in this story. The aspect of expense distinction between application and hardware is anywhere from 4.6X to 12.4X, as which you could see.

Now, let’s espy how the Power9 entry machines stack up to these. here is the software fees for the ZZ methods that they profiled lower back in March:

In widely wide-spread, the software costs, on a per CPW basis, are reduce, starting from a low of 25 cents to a inordinate of $2.ninety five. here's plenty better. but as you can espy in the chart under, the delta ingredient between hardware and foundation IBM i pricing is still in the identical variety of gap, ranging from a low of four.7X to a elevated of 11X:

That noted, the rate/performance advancements for both foundation hardware and foundation utility are fairly gigantic, so it's the first rate news. there has been Moore’s law improvements for both the hardware and the utility, which there certainly may still acquire been supply the 4 yr cavity between these two families of machines. The tempo has slowed, to design sure, however the offers are still enhanced. The concern is that it is not workable to come by the cost of a foundation machine beneath $25,000. They still believe this decal fee is simply too elevated compared to X86 iron, whatever they are able to discover in a future theme of The four Hundred.

connected reports

Bang For The Buck On Power9 Entry Hardware

The performance acquire an outcome on Of Spectre And Meltdown

The Deal On Power9 remembrance For Entry Servers

inside IBM’s vigour S924 Power9 Entry device

Drilling Down Into the new Power9 Entry Servers

in the end, IBM i ultimately receives Power9

IBM Preps Power9 “ZZ” techniques For forthcoming Launch

IBM Readies Mainstream Power9 Iron For Launch

The AS/four hundred classes gain back round With Power9 programs

IBM Deal expenses present Power8 Compute dote Future Power9

guidance For The vigour techniques shop That Has To purchase Now

Power9 huge Iron “Fleetwood/Mack” Rumors

speakme Power9 With IBM Fellow Brad McCredie

The vigour Neine Conundrum

IBM i And AIX won’t come by Power9 unless 2018


IBM juices I/O and reminiscence on entry power techniques | killexams.com actual Questions and Pass4sure dumps

when you are a person of an entry or a bit biggish dash programs server and furthermore you are remembrance or I/O restrained, then IBM has some new Power7 machines it wants to sell you. If not, the enterprise is completely delighted to sell you the existing Power7 machines, which don't advocate as lots leading remembrance and which simplest utilize PCI-X and PCI-categorical 1.0 peripherals.

On Wednesday, as rumored, IBM did indeed deliver out new methods – however they aren't in response to the Power7+ chip, however as a substitute present Power7 processors. Some are running on the identical clock speeds as these used within the machines they exchange, and some are working a tad bit sooner thanks to enhanced yields on the forty five nanometer process huge Blue uses to etch the eight-core Power7 processors.

IBM Power 710/730 server

The entry energy 710/730 Power7 server

The updated power 710 and dash 730 servers are available in the selfsame 2U chassis that their older siblings and close twins acquire been wrapped in once they acquire been announced in August 2010.

the brand new dash 710 has a single Power7 processor and eight DDR3 main remembrance slots working at 1.07GHz. in contrast to the older 710 model, it supports 16GB remembrance sticks and for this understanding tops out at 128GB as an alternative of 64GB. The computing device additionally has 5 x8 peripheral slots, as an alternative of four, and they race on the sooner PCI-express 2.0 velocity that most servers utilize at the instant – they are able to delivery the PCI-express three.0 cycle as soon as Intel formally launches its "Sandy Bridge-EP" Xeon E5 processors sometime subsequent year.

These PCI gen-2 x8 peripheral slots operate at 20Gb/sec of bandwidth, twice the gen-1 slots. The extinct and new power 710s offer the identical processor alternatives: a four-core chip working at 3GHz, a six-core operating at three.7GHz, and an eight-core at 3.55GHz.

The power 730 it truly is according to the equal chassis comes with a two-socket processor card that may guide as much as 256GB using the 16GB sticks, and has four diverse processor options, which acquire to live introduced in matched pairs: four-core 3GHz, 4-core three.7GHz, six-core three.7GHz, and eight-core 3.55GHz. The chassis has margin for six 2.5-inch drives.

The up-to-date energy 720 machine comes in a 4U chassis with margin for eight 2.5-inch disks and has the equal five PCI-categorical 2.0 slots. or not it's a single-socket computer, and it may possibly only live configured with Power7 chips working at 3GHz; shoppers can choose a processor with four, six, or eight cores. The entry four-core edition doesn't acquire a 12X I/O loop (a modified InfiniBand 20Gb/sec hyperlink) to hook to far flung storage bays, but the ones with six or eight cores do. the brand new dash 720 tops out at 256GB of main reminiscence using the 16GB sticks.

IBM's Power 720/740 server

IBM's dash 720/740 server

The power 740 may furthermore live configured with one or two gadget playing cards, every with one processor, and offers 4 different Power7 processor options: 4-core operating at three.3GHz or three.7GHz, six-core at three.7GHz, and eight-core at 3.55GHz. you could add one processor at a time, however the 2d one has to match the first one if you come by round to placing it in.

each processor card has a single 12X remote I/O slot and supports 256GB of leading reminiscence, twice what remaining yr's dash 740 might do. The machine supports 5 PCI-categorical 2.0 x8 slots, and with optional PCI-express drawers placing off that 12X loop, that you could add an extra forty PCI-specific 2.0 slots to the system.

besides the fatter remembrance and PCI increase, these 4 machines acquire a dedicated slot for a twin-port Gigabit Ethernet LAN controller. Nothing else can plug into this slot.

On the power 770, IBM is goosing the speeds on the Power7 processors a bit of, lots because it did with the vigour 750s in April this year. The power 770 computer is made up of 4 two-socket servers which are lashed along side a NUMA chipset that creates an eight-socket, shared remembrance equipment.

final yr's fashions used six-core Power7s operating at 3.5GHz or eight-core chips operating at 3.1GHz. within the new energy 770, the six-core chips are revved to 3.72GHz and the eight-core versions spin at 3.3GHz. The maximum reminiscence on this desktop is doubled to 4TB the utilize of 16GB reminiscence, and the server nodes now acquire six PCI-categorical 2.0 x8 peripheral slots.

IBM Power 770

IBM's four-chassis dash 770

As section of the Power7 launch in February 2010, a special version of the 4-chassis vigour 770, referred to as the vigour 780, became created with a dual-boot mode that allowed for half of the cores to live turned off on reboot and the chip clocks to race a bit larger. This additionally allowed the 32GB of embedded DRAM L3 cache to live carved up by using half as many processor cores. For loads of workloads (akin to database processing), the doubling in L3 cache and temper clock pace enhance per core may discontinue up in a computer that does significantly more work.

With the new power 780 launched this week, IBM is shifting the energy 780 to four sockets from the outdated two and plunking in six-core chips. So the accurate-conclusion mannequin has 96 cores, operating at 3.44GHz. The sixty four-core mannequin, which is in keeping with eight-core processors, furthermore become tweaked, with cores that race at 3.92GHz with outright cores on (a cramped better than the three.86GHz of closing yr's mannequin) and at four.14GHz with half the cores deactivated (the equal as the prior computing device). reminiscence capability on both new vigour 780 editions is doubled to a max of 4TB.

Why not shove the energy 780 the entire fashion to 128 cores and utilize plenary eight-core Power7 chips? as a result of that would obtrude with energy 795 income, and IBM expenses a nice top rate for processors, reminiscence, and application on those boxes.

The dash 795s scale as much as 32 sockets, 256 cores, and 1,024 threads as well as up to 8TB of reminiscence. IBM's AIX 7.1 and purple Hat and SUSE Linuxes can span these cores and threads in a single graphic, but big Blue's personal IBM i (formerly OS/400) operating gadget peters out at 32 cores and 128 threads devoid of special patches.

by the way, neither the vigour 750 nor the power 795 acquire been up-to-date with double remembrance or PCI-specific 2.0 peripheral slots. Steve Sibley, director of product management for the dash techniques line at huge Blue, tells El Reg that the enterprise decided that these machines did not need the I/O or reminiscence improvements presently. The vigour 750 already supported 512GB of remembrance the utilize of 8GB sticks, and it is incredibly unlikely that IBM has many shoppers clamoring for 16TB energy 795s.

the new energy programs will live attainable on October 21. Pricing within the foundation machines is the exact selfsame for the entry energy 710, 720, 730, and 740 machines – and this is so with the aid of intention, says Sibley, to design it viable for IBM's earnings reps and channel partners to focal point on selling both forms of machines.

If it were me doing the purchasing, i might both require a box that may advocate the faster I/O and fatter remembrance or require a value sever if i was buying the older box from remaining year. ®

subsidized: fitting a practical protection leader


IBM power device S922: Rack Server Overview and insight | killexams.com actual Questions and Pass4sure dumps

See the total checklist of fine rack server carriers

base line:

The IBM dash techniques S922 server is designed from the ground up for information intensive workloads dote databases or analytics. it may possibly advocate a number of key trade information-intensive scenarios, together with mainstream purposes, leading-part HPC workloads and evolving simulated intelligence (AI) tasks.

shoppers seeking essential compute power should still understand this key truth: POWER9 solutions are the basis of the realm’s first and third quickest supercomputers, the U.S. branch of power’s pinnacle and Sierra installations.

IBM power servers are likely to acquire an improved can permeate of entry than x86 machines. youngsters, in keeping with a study by using Quark + Lepton, IBM vigour methods operating IBM I software acquire 60% reduce complete cost of ownership than home windows/SQL Server or X86 based mostly Oracle systems. IBM’s pitch is that there are limits to what commodity architectures can do.

although, in case you are expecting surges prominent and don’t acquire margin for downtime, licensing prices, or occasional crashes a stronger commercial enterprise structure could live required.

Product description:

The S922 is a 1 or 2 socket server that presents a wide selection of core configurations and up to 4 TB of memory. Chip core speeds on the four-core are 2.8 to 3.8GHz, on the eight core are three.4 to 3.9 GHz and on the 10 core are 2.9 to three.8 GHz. the only socket edition offers up to 6 PCIe ( 2 x Gen4 and 4 x Gen3) slots and both socket edition gives as much as 9 slots (three more Gen4 slots). One slot is used by means of a compulsory Ethernet adapter. depending on what's connected, up to 3 of these slots may well live reserved for different functions. IBM i is just supported on the 6 cores and 8 core processors and is proscribed to 4 cores of IBM i with a software tier of P10.

power systems are generic for his or her RAS (resiliency, availability, serviceability) aspects. IBM POWER9-primarily based systems are stated to convey up to 10X faster bandwidth acceleration and 50% more advantageous remembrance bandwidth than related x86 options. They additionally wait on the newest in records transfer technologies, including PCIe four.0 and novel NVLink and OpenCAPI interfaces. This new server generation comes together with twice the reminiscence footprint than POWER8. alterations in the remembrance subsystem and the utilize of the newest DIMMs boost fee/efficiency.

facets:

number of processors:

as much as 2

Processors supported:

IBM POWER9 Scale-Out SMT8 processor (12-core, 10-core, eight-core, four-core choices)

Cores per processor:

4, 8,10 cores per socket

maximum processor frequency/cache:

three.9 GHz/512k L2 and 10 MB L3

I/O growth slots:

the single socket edition gives up to six PCIe ( 2 x Gen4 and 4 x Gen3) slots and the two socket edition offers as much as 9 slots (3 extra Gen4 slots). One slot is used by course of a mandatory Ethernet adapter. counting on what's connected, up to a few of these slots may live reserved for different purposes.

One entrance USB 3.0 ports – Two rear USB 3.0 ports – Two HMC 1 GbE RJ45 ports – One device port with RJ45 connector – 1x USB three.0 entrance, 2x USB three.0 rear, 2x HMC 1 GB Eth RJ45 ports, one system port with RJ45 connector, 2x inordinate pace 25 Gb/s ports

highest reminiscence/# slots/speed:

up to four TB/32 IS RDIMM slots/up to 2666 Mhz

optimum Persistent reminiscence:

NA 

Storage controller:

S922/S924 has two interior direct connected storage connectors, an NVMe card and a SAS card

aid:

The electronic services internet portal is a single cyber web entry factor that replaces the multiple entry points traditionally used to access IBM internet features and help. This web portal permits you to profit more straightforward access to IBM materials for guidance in resolving technical problems. The newly more desirable My systems and top rate Search functions design it even more convenient for digital carrier Agent-enabled consumers to track device inventory and locate pertinent fixes.

My methods provides useful studies of deliver in hardware and utility using tips amassed from the programs by course of IBM electronic service Agent. stories can live institute for any system linked to the client's IBMid. top rate Search combines the duty of search and the value of electronic service Agent information, featuring superior search of the technical wait on knowledgebase.

“it is a clear election if you already acquire a longtime IBM AIX atmosphere and want to maintain compatibility and hold efficiency. There are related alternate options now which may well live in a position to come by you to three nines for 1/2 the costs,” pointed out a Senior manager of IT within the manufacturing industry. 

Key markets and utilize situations:

IBM dash techniques S922 server easily integrates into a company’s cloud & cognitive fashion and delivers superior fee efficiency for mission crucial workloads.

POWER9 is designed from the ground up for facts intensive workloads dote databases or analytics

fee:

20 core, 512 GB, $37,222. The application is costly.

“it is a product with inordinate performance, efficiency and pecuniary indices in the IT market,” pointed out an functions Engineering in the education trade. "Deployment is very convenient, however took greater than three months. It proved competitively priced in the long run.”

Server

IBM energy S922

Max Processor Frequency

three.9 GHz/512k L2 and 10 MB L3

Max Persistent memory

N/A

kind ingredient

2U

Max Processors

2 POWER9 Scale-Out SMT8

Max reminiscence

four TB

Max Storage

four TB

cost

$37,222

Key Differentiator

appropriate processing energy


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    Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World? | killexams.com actual questions and Pass4sure dumps

    Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World? Brian Connors KB1KKC (W6NNABE) on November 11, 2004View comments about this article!

    It seems to me that much of the titillating drudgery these days in the dilettante radio world isn't being done by hams at all, but by people working within the section 15 limits of the 802.11 world, dealing with antenna design, signal connectivity, and the ultimate Mile problem.

    Spokane, WA is running a citywide WiFi system, and there are countless wardrivers and guerilla networkers who are contributing valuable information on signal propagation and infrastructure design. It seems to me the WiFi hackers of the 21st Century are the spiritual heirs to the tradition of packet radio, so why attain they espy so cramped discussion of WiFi technology within the circles that contribute to places dote eHam? Are these people not radio amateurs just the selfsame as us, with or without licenses?

    Member Comments: This article has expired. No more comments may live added. WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by K4IQT on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! If they acquire to HACK into that Spokane WiFi network then these "wardrivers and guerilla networkers" are NOT "radio amateurs" through their actions, and are NOT spiritual heirs to anything except the long-standing traditions of theft and vandalism!

    If you acquire a public network with legitimate unrestricted access, certain they are free to tinker with it outright they want to. However, just because the limits of section 15 are observed does not design breaking into a network legal or ethical.

    I've got a WiFi LAN at home, and acquire to race 256 bit WEP to maintain out unwanted visitors and drive-by networkers (a neighbor kid broke my 128-bit WEP). Even that plane of security won't maintain out someone with lots of time, a WiFi laptop, and some network busting software that is available on the Internet.

    Nearly outright radio amateurs are strictly legal in their operating and methodologies, and are not brothers-in-arms with hackers. Having enough learning of electronics, propagation, antennas, and standards specifications to burst into controlled and half-secure communication networks is certainly not anything to live proud of.

      our bands, their interference   by KZ1X on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I am sending this message via an 802.11 link, so, I know how useful the technology is. I hold a patent covering a technology key to the widespread deployment of 802.11, and I am furthermore a contributing member of the IEEE standards cadaver working on WiFi.

    That said: Propagation on (and antenna construction techniques for) the 2.4 GHz company is well known and documented. WiFi users attain not add any new learning in this area. In fact, they routinely ignore and violate section 15 with their illegal modifications to equipment, which then obtrude into dilettante radio spectrum.

    Sorry. While a diminutive minority of the computer network folks might become fine hams, most are just interested in skirting alternate, legal means of establishing connectivity. nefarious tidings is nefarious news, even if it only has a 300' range. Would you question people who hack their cordless phones to double the range, illegally, to gain to your next testing session? I didn't deem so. There's cramped difference.

    You may wish to examine at the ARRL's program to hearten experimentation in this company by hams and hams-to-be.

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by TIMOTHIUS on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "If they acquire to HACK into that Spokane WiFi network then these "wardrivers and guerilla networkers" are NOT "radio amateurs" through their actions, and are NOT spiritual heirs to anything except the long-standing traditions of theft and vandalism!"

    The computer mob is struggling with ethics. many of the younger computer users learn to hack before they learn that it is wrong to attain so. If I am not mistaken, they by virtue of the license are able to design certain modifications to their equipment. The wifi is a non licensed portion of the spectrum and therefore, I believe not suppposed to live modified. Why is it so hard for some folks to stay within the law.

    If I am wrong here gratify wait on me out.

    Tim, ke5bhf

      Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K7NNG on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! SIMPLE, It is not ham radio. wifi operators usually attain what they want and burst the rules...so I don't want them around. Ham radio is radio, computers are computers....its simple..   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by K4NR on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Tim,

    "The wifi is a non licensed portion of the spectrum "

    Check your company charts and you'll find that most (if not all) of the spectrum used by common 802.11 data is allocated for utilize by dilettante Radio.

    73 de Tom, K4NR

      Headline   by AA6E on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "KB1KKC feels they should embrace WiFi technicians."

    My reaction: I'm not _that_ hard up for a date!

      Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WA2JJH on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I utilize my 802A/b laptop outright over New york city.Plenty of people acquire set up Free Publc Access to WI-FI.

    Many colleges acquire non WEP systems.

    This one dude wired up outright of Central Park for WI-FI.

    Yes, if your on a non WEP system you risk being hacked.

    802B(7 channels) are dote public water fountines.

    I am involved with a group of Hams and others that want to design more free WIFI.

    It is fine for the information age, and hopefully will design BPL undesirable.

    I attain not condone ripping off someones system.802B can live free legally. Only problem is you acquire zero expectation of privacy. It is not a panacea.

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by TIMOTHIUS on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Tom, Thanks for the info. What about the modification for the equipment? I belive that hams are allowed to design some mods to there equipment. I am not certain about wifi? Are they allowed to modify the equipment?

    I race wifi here at the house and supervision for it. I ran big computer systems for years and it is much to live off the wire. I attain however protect myself by using firewall, WEP and MAC filtering to forestall theft of bandwidth and hacking of my system. This is not fool proof but it is a layer of security. To attain any less is irresponsible.

    Tim, ke5bhf

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by W2DUG on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > Are these people not radio amateurs just the selfsame as> us, with or without licenses?

    They may live radio hobbyists, but they would not design fine hams because (a) they probably wouldn't want to live forced to operate within the confines of the ham license, and (b) they probably don't acquire the forbearance that ham radio requires.

    Radio communication for the sake of radio communication--that is, dilettante radio--is not really very titillating to them in comparison to the applications of WiFi and the access to the Internet they desire.

      Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by NE0P on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "Are these people not radio amateurs just the selfsame as us, with or without licenses?"

    Actually CB operators would live closer to unlicensed "Brother Hams" than WiFi developers would be, and examine at how they deal them!

    73s John NE0P

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by K4NR on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Tim,

    The ARRL bandplan encourages us to utilize one of the WIFI channels (I deem it's channel 7, but that's from memory)and utilize their callsigns as section of the SSID. There no understanding they can't modify materiel and experiment with the technology.

    WEP and MAC filtering are fine starts but easily spoofed. I need to grasp a examine at my WIFI access point and espy if there's a course to eddy off the broadcast SSID and design the network "invisible".

    A local WIFI ISP in my locality did a site survey around my house. 135 networks--88 wide open. Most peole set up the networks using the default settings for security. I prodigy how many even bother to change the default passwords?

    73 de Tom, K4NR

      RE: their bands, their interference   by K4RAF on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "WiFi users attain not add any new learning in this area. In fact, they routinely ignore and violate section 15 with their illegal modifications to equipment, which then obtrude into dilettante radio spectrum."

    Ahhh, yes... Riding that elevated & mighty horse of exclusion?

    - This is the very understanding why they are minimized & the FCC forced us to partake the company because of bratty attitudes shown here from the start. WiFi'rs are clearly putting us to shame when literally millions are using their packet technology to stir the world forward while bitter hams sit with 9600 baud packet from 1983 & are content with it but envious of others. If you deem holding a license is proof of technical competency, you obviously don't acquire a clue or are intentionally blind to reality. There are 25 hams in my county yet there are over 500 Access Points, attain the math rocket scietists!

    "Nearly outright radio amateurs are strictly legal in their operating and methodologies, and are not brothers-in-arms with hackers."

    - You're either in denial or don't operate often. Tuner uppers, 2KHz "wedging", "nets on schedule", UnID'd comments & generic absurd deportment has taken over the bands along with the ever present "What's YOUR call?" How many hams acquire been caught jamming "public service" frequencies or each other? Oh yea, highly ethical hams...

    "Having enough learning of electronics, propagation, antennas, and standards specifications to burst into controlled and half-secure communication networks is certainly not anything to live proud of"

    - A ham license test is far from a proof of learning because 50% of Extra-lites can't even solder a pilot light! Appliance operators acquire no WEP but I'd bet they easily become hams.

    The entire tone of this thread is rather embarrassing. How can they attract interest when it is so far from reciprocal? Resentment is no equal to respect. I respect geeks but quickly losing respect for hams because of extinct attitudes that simply haven't died although they should. Being "patient" with ham radio is accepting yesterday's standards as "good enough" for today & not planning a shove for tomorrow. Just examine at CW!!!

    Viva la WiFi, WiMax & 802.Xx geeks!

    k4raf@yahoo.com

      Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WA1RNE on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Radio control pilots utilize radio frequencies to accomplish their stint but they are not considered radio amateurs - so why should a WiFi user live considered one?

    WiFi allows users to communicate using a set transmission protocol with and without encryption.

    Radio amateurs can change transmission modes and frequencies which is a horse of a different color.

    by the way, try using WPA encryption with TKIP. That is a much stronger fashion of encryption that your neighbor kid will haul his hair out trying to decode your key from about 150 million different possibilities.

      Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WN3VAW on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! WiFi? What about the potential BPL Killer, WiMax 802.16?   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KC8VWM on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "The ARRL bandplan encourages us to utilize one of the WIFI channels (I deem it's channel 7, but that's from memory)and utilize their callsigns as section of the SSID."

    Word of Caution..

    You are not permitted by the rules to utilize that device to transmit internet "commercial" content over that device if it is regulated as a section 97 dilettante radio device.

    Part 15 devices on the other hand attain not acquire this restriction.

    you might want to rethink the utilize of your callsign on the SSID of the device, especially if your using your Wifi device for any "commercial" interests using the internet.

    Remember the "Using a repeater to order a pizza" scenerio?

    Also the utilize of any digital "encyption" code may not live permitted unless the code is "publically" documented under section 97 rules. Most encyption methods used by manufacturers for Wifi devices may live proprietary and may only live distributed under license. In other words, the encyption code is non public.

    Any other thoughts?

    73

    Charles - KC8VWM

      Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WA6BFH on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Glad to espy you got a license Brian! As you might acquire guessed though, the original WiFi Systems were designed and built by Ham's. Some Ham friends of mine built the first system better than two decades ago. They installed it in the city of Cupertino. You may acquire seen photo's of some of their original units, it was a cute idea.

    They used existing street lamp poles, both for their height, security, and the easy availability for power. The unit was slung below the lamps cross arm with it's whip antenna pointing down, they built a nifty cramped power plug adapter that plugged into the socket where the lamps photo-electric relay switch was inserted. The gross installation per unit took about 10 minutes each. I can't quite recollect the appellation of their company, and I'm not so hard up for a date either, so as to grasp the time to research it. You should live able to find them though.

    Isn't Ham Radio just more fun and exciting than 'war-driving!' deem about it, 23,471 MHz of spectrum using pretty much any mode you like. Wow, who wants to futz with Pringles can antennas, when they can build actual radio stuff! Duh, actual Ham's I guess.

    Good numbers to ya out there Bubba! Your wall to wall and tree top tall on that Pringles can!

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by K4NR on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Charles,

    Quote:

    You are not permitted by the rules to utilize that device to transmit internet "commercial" content over that device if it is regulated as a section 97 dilettante radio device.

    Part 15 devices on the other hand attain not acquire this restriction.

    you might want to rethink the utilize of your callsign on the SSID of the device, especially if your using your Wifi device for any "commercial" interests using the internet.

    Remember the "Using a repeater to order a pizza" scenerio?

    End Quote

    You are remedy about the non-commercial utilize of an dilettante 802.11 link. I'm certain the "ordering a pizza on the repeater" thought process will live hashed out down the line. If my remembrance serves me, that determination was left to the individual control ops rather than a blanket ruling that it was "commercial use" and not authorized.

    The ARRL is recommending they utilize the eSSID to ID.

    There is much experimentation happening in this area. I did note that WEP was okay using a published HMSS Key.

    Loads of margin for much discussion on this issue!

    73 de Tom, K4NR

    From the ARRL Website:

    The ARRL Enhanced IEEE 802.11 Project calls for operation of the basic IEEE criterion by licensed dilettante radio operators in the upper section of the 2.4 GHz company while not significantly interfering with other dilettante radio activities on that company or section 15 IEEE 802.11b operation in the band. Under section 97 of the FCC rules, amateurs are allowed to race many times the power of section 15 operation as well as utilize antennas with unrestricted gain.

    IEEE 802.11b channels 1-6 Fall totally within the 2.4 GHz ham band. They are recommending that channels 2-5 live used for IEEE 802.11b operation as they attain not tamper with other classic dilettante radio operations in the company and are not on channels widely used by section 15 operations. They recommend that channel 5 live used as the primary channel for generic ARRL 802.11 network operation.

    SNIP

    ...we are working on some IEEE 802.11b issues such as outright station utilize "hsmm" as their SSID, and their dilettante callsign in any second SSID (eSSID) or node/AP name.

    Source: http://www.arrl.org/hsmm/project.html

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by AB2M on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Actually, this assertion regarding "unspecified codes" is a cramped off. The "codes" referred to here are essentially the "protocol" - i.e. Baudot, PACTOR, GTOR, etc. $$97.309(b) says (in part):

    "RTTY and data emissions using unspecified digital codes must not live transmitted for the purpose of obscuring the signification of any communication."

    Now, WEP (or any other encryption) would live an unspecified code. Since it would live easily argued that it is being used to obscure the signification of the communication (even if you argued that it was for access control), I am confident it would live institute in violation of $$97.309(b).

    I drudgery in the WiFi Security space professionally; there is no solution that will adequately protect a "Part 97 WiFi" installation from malicious use, much as there is no mechanism to protect a repeater from malicious use. MAC filtering and disabling the SSID broadcasts are really outright you can bring to abide while still remaining compliant with section 97, and, as already mentioned, are bypassed trivially.

    The actual distinction here is that unlike a repeater system, the generic public is using the selfsame materiel as they are; thereby exposing us not only to the customary repeater-jammer type, but to the computer hacker that doesn't play in the classic RF world. Therefore, your interference (hacking) probability is sky-high from the outset.

    I don't acquire any solutions to offer at this time. From a security point of view, the only security their AX.25 packet networks, repeaters, and HF Enjoy would live called "security by obscurity". Remove that, and you open yourself up to the selfsame miscreants that acquire made the Internet a security nightmare. Or, to analogize in perhaps more intimate terms, it's dote having the next FRS service partake the 2m band.

    73, Joe AB2M

      Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by G0GQK on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Are these suggestions in the accurate spirit of dilettante radio ? attain you honestly believe that that the World of WiFi is the next step forward for ham radio ?   RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4RAF on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "the only security their AX.25 packet networks, repeaters, and HF Enjoy would live called 'security by obscurity'..."

    This is a very powerful definition of where they are in relation to the entire section 15 movement within their own country.

    Why bother with a license to restrict you when you can acquire much more actual fun without endlessly arguing over rules & seeking approval.

    It it weren't for 802.11 becoming so widespread, where would hams acquire to squat & using what?

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by W5HTW on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Some people loom to believe that ham radio is simply a utility by which to connect computers. "Radio" is not the goal; instead, talking between computers is. To me, that makes computers the hobby, not ham radio. And for many of those people, if not most of them, if a better, faster, cheaper fashion of connecting computers is available, they'll utilize it.

    We need to settle if ham radio is a hobby, or simply a means of conducting some other hobby, i.e., computers and the internet. If it is a utility, eventually it will live governed as such. If they design that 300 foot communication by WiFi is the hobby of ham radio, then so are cordless phones, garage door openers, home security systems, keyless entry to automobiles, remote operated house lights, and PLC.

    Ed

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by W5HTW on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <<he only security their AX.25 packet networks, repeaters, and HF Enjoy would live called 'security by obscurity'..."

    This is a very powerful definition of where they are in relation to the entire section 15 movement within their own country.

    Why bother with a license to restrict you when you can acquire much more actual fun without endlessly arguing over rules & seeking approval.

    It it weren't for 802.11 becoming so widespread, where would hams acquire to squat & using what?>>

    What about 20 meters CW?

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by W5HTW on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! PS. K4RAF is not institute in the QRZ database.

    Ed

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KC8VWM on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! CB or FRS - is a "radio" hobby.

    ARS on the other hand is about communications regardless of the limitless spectrum of operating modes available for us to use.

    "Voice" communication is only a tiny aspect of the bigger picture of dilettante communications.

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by GHOSTRIDERHF on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I attain Ham radio..

    I furthermore dote to wardrive and read other peoples emails that don't secure their wireless routers.....

    Isn't life wintry ....

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KE7CDV on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I'm outright for encourging WiFi users to become Hams, but realistically I'm not so certain they acquire that much to offer them. As far as I can tell, WiFi enthusiasts are primarily motivated by the crave to acquire wireless Internet access at 'reasonable' speeds (these days signification at least 128kbps, and preferably more dote some-Mbps). The hardware experimentation is limited due to the complexity of the radios. At the discontinue of the day, these folks want to live able to surf the Internet and still read their e-mail, design purchases on Amazon.Com, and, yes, potentially visit porn sites as they wish without anyone telling them otherwise.

    Some of the people doing outright this are interested in the technical aspects of, e.g., radio design, modulation, propagation, etc., and dilettante radio has something to offer them there. On the other hand, when it comes to Internet connectivity -- their main goal -- dilettante radio tends to live far more restrictive and much, much slower than what they already have.

    ---Joel KolstadKE7CDV

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by W5HTW on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! However, K4RAF IS in the FCC database. OK, prodigy why QRZ doesn't list him? Their election or his? I am always suspicious of people who want to transfigure ham radio into the hobby of computer, but in this case, he IS a ham, so I acquire to retract my implication!

    ED

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by G7HEU on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! ED

    I'm not moaning at you directly :

    People need to realise that the QRZ data foundation is an independant web site. People can choose wether or not they enter thier own details to it.

    Don't you guys acquire a facility to examine up calls on the FCC site?

    Best wishes

    SteveG7HEU / M0HEU.

    I'm not 'knocking' QRZ either and I'm delighted to acquire my entry there.

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KC9AGG on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! amen, discontinue of thread...good discussion...it's not "big brother" watching, it's anybody and everybody getting any information they want via the internet...all you acquire to attain is examine me up!!( acquire a peep parade for yourself).   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by N2WEC on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! What the Hell is "WiFi"? I acquire yet to espy a fine explanation of just what it is. Whats the deal?   RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by AE6IP on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > PS. K4RAF is not institute in the QRZ database

    Really? and the fact that Fred is deliberately excluding licensed hams from his database is apposite to K4RAF's arguments in what way?

    (PPS: K4RAF *is* in the FCC database.)

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by G7HEU on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! N2WEC

    For you:

    http://www.lordpercy.com/wifi_explained.htm

    Steve.

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by AE6IP on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > What the Hell is "WiFi"?

    It's market speak. WiFi = "Wireless Fidelity". Means the network interface between computers is radio based, rather than wires.

    A lot of local-area networks (LANs) now utilize 802.11b criterion RF networks. This is much for building locality nets and laptop users, since the laptop can live connected without being physically teathered. Means I can walk into a meeting with my laptop and still live on line.

    802.11b is only one of a family of 802.11 wireless protocols. These days 802.11g, which is faster, is becoming popular.

      Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by W2EV on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! WiFi experimenters of 2004 are not unlike wireless experimenters of 1904. Wouldn't it live wintry if, instead of treating them dote bandits or undesirables, they institute a course to embrace and Elmer them to their (and society's) benefit?

    Think in new ways. This could work.

    Ev Tupis, W2EV

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by G7HEU on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! KD5RGJ

    Either you are experiencing QRM or you should hit the 'refresh' button on your browser.

    Steve.

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by G7HEU on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! W2EV / Ev

    It's a cramped dote short wave listening for the 21st centuary:

    http://news.zdnet.co.uk/internet/0,39020369,2118000,00.htm

    Steve

      WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by K4RAF on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Just did a wardrive this afternoon, using a 7dB magnet mount & a 200mW Senao card:

    Here in rural South Central Virginia, my county has 25 dynamic hams at the most, yet I logged 155 Access Points in just 1 of 5 towns. 11 were WEP'd. 75% were defaulted to channel 6 & no changes made to anything. That is no one's weakness but the "system administrator" since only 2 sites actually offer open access (the library & a car dealer)

    ?QRZ? Oh gratify feel free: k4raf@yahoo.com

      RE: WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by KC8VWM on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! That warchalking article from London was very titillating Steve.

    73

    Charles - KC8VWM

      Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by W6NNABE on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Well, now that I've seen some of the responses, I should give my own position. (Note that I utilize "hack" in the nonintrusive sense -- wifi hackers are people trying to come by the most out of 802.11 equipment, not necessarily trying to burst security.)

    What it comes down to is this -- radio is mainly about communications. What the wifi hackers are doing is finding ways to come by a miniscule signal to propagate as far and as effectively as possible, and to that discontinue they're bringing new interest to microwave engineering. They're the ones doing the homebrew antenna projects, trying to design out how to milk that ultimate dB of gain out of an antenna; essentially, they're trying to come by the most out of microwave QRP. And they're doing outright that with type-accepted off-the-shelf equipment.

    Okay, so it's only one mode, a figure of packet radio. But I still deem there's enough ingenuity and original thinking going on to accept the wifi hackers.

      Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by AA6YQ on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! There's an nefarious lot of painting with broad brushes going on here. Most people involved in wireless networking aren't hackers any more than most hams are QRMers. Yes, both communities are plagued by a diminutive number of sociopaths and poseurs, but we've suffered similars fools since the dawn of telecommunications.

    There are huge opportunities for hams to innovate with wireless technology, but connecting consumers to the internet isn't one of them; section 97 precludes this, and anything new would require colossal differentiation to gain mind-share. But mesh networking, peer-to-peer protocols, compression schemes, location determination -- outright of these could live pursued by hams with cheap off-the-shelf hardware operating under section 97 on dilettante bands.

    Most of the communications revolution is in front of us, not behind us.

    73,

    Dave, AA6YQ

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by W6NNABE on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I utilize "hacker" in the sense of someone who likes to attain titillating things with the equipment. It's actually something of a compliment in the computer world, and that sense (more or less the original sense of the word) is coming back somewhat. I mention directly to the O'Reilly title Wireless Hacks, whose hacks are outright about things you can attain with your 802.11 installation and how to attain them and nothing to attain with trying to compromise someone else's network.   RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WA6BFH on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! W6NNABE, I don't affect this as a 'put down' but, how extinct are you? I am thinking that your just not extinct enough, or maybe not experienced enough, to examine at "RF" as a widely dynamic engineering pursuit.

    Thats wintry though! It's fine that you are seeking broad perspective. I just deem you need a cramped more experience.

    No harm dog, I'm up with it (or is that I'm down with it)!

    .- .-. ____ . ____ de John

      Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by AB0SF on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! After reading the majority of the postings on this thread, I'm embarrassed to admit that I actually wasted the time to obtain my dilettante Radio License. Now I acquire a better understanding why my colleagues give me grief about being a Ham. Their image to the relaxation of society totally sucks at the present time.

    Don't come by me wrong, I Enjoy this hobby profusely, but this narrow-minded, holier-than-though crap has got to proceed to the wayside, folks, lest they wither away into a sidebar in the history books.

    While companies dote Intel are producing 10 GHz xvcrs the size of a microprocessor, what are they doing? Flaming people who acquire an interest in a certain aspect in radio but who aren't hams. come by off your high-horses, and examine at this as a marketing opportunity. There is a direct correlation between today's crackers (They're certainly not hackers.) and tomorrow's hams. Let's live accurate to the dilettante Tradition and parade them the way, not their nostrils. acquire fun. I hope your boat anchor keeps you warm this winter.

    P.S. By the way, the overwhelming majority of War-Drivers are accurate to the hacker-ethic. They merely quest out the networks and betoken their potential flaws. No intentional connection, no intentional "theft of service," no breaking into computers on the wireless networks' network. Don't assume everyone enjoying this niche hobby is a malicious fool dote the media stories supervision for to point out.

      Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KB1JCY on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Let's clarify things ...

    From "The Jargon File" published by Eric S. Raymond:

    <i>hacker: n.

    [originally, someone who makes furniture with an axe]

    1. A person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems and how to stretch their capabilities, as opposed to most users, who prefer to learn only the minimum necessary. RFC1392, the Internet Users' Glossary, usefully amplifies this as: A person who delights in having an intimate understanding of the internal workings of a system, computers and computer networks in particular.

    2. One who programs enthusiastically (even obsessively) or who enjoys programming rather than just theorizing about programming.

    3. A person capable of appreciating hack value.

    4. A person who is fine at programming quickly.

    5. An expert at a particular program, or one who frequently does drudgery using it or on it; as in ‘a Unix hacker’. (Definitions 1 through 5 are correlated, and people who fit them congregate.)

    6. An expert or enthusiast of any kind. One might live an astronomy hacker, for example.

    7. One who enjoys the intellectual challenge of creatively overcoming or circumventing limitations.

    8. [deprecated] A malicious meddler who tries to discover sensitive information by poking around. Hence password hacker, network hacker. The remedy term for this sense is cracker.</i>

    Compare with:

    <i>cracker: n.

    One who breaks security on a system. Coined ca. 1985 by hackers in defense against journalistic misuse of hacker (q.v., sense 8). An earlier attempt to establish worm in this sense around 1981--82 on Usenet was largely a failure.

    Use of both these neologisms reflects a stout revulsion against the theft and vandalism perpetrated by cracking rings. The neologism “cracker” in this sense may acquire been influenced not so much by the term “safe-cracker” as by the non-jargon term “cracker”, which in Middle English meant an obnoxious person (e.g., “What cracker is this selfsame that deafs their ears / With this abundance of spare breath?” — Shakespeare's King John, Act II, Scene I) and in modern colloquial American English survives as a barely gentler synonym for “white trash”.

    While it is expected that any actual hacker will acquire done some frolicsome cracking and knows many of the basic techniques, anyone past larval stage is expected to acquire outgrown the crave to attain so except for immediate, benign, practical reasons (for example, if it's necessary to come by around some security in order to come by some drudgery done).

    Thus, there is far less overlap between hackerdom and crackerdom than the mundane reader misled by sensationalistic journalism might expect. Crackers tend to assemble in small, tight-knit, very secretive groups that acquire cramped overlap with the huge, open poly-culture this lexicon describes; though crackers often dote to relate themselves as hackers, most accurate hackers account them a divide and lower figure of life. An easy course for outsiders to spot the distinction is that crackers utilize grandiose screen names that conceal their identities. Hackers never attain this; they only rarely utilize noms de guerre at all, and when they attain it is for parade rather than concealment.

    Ethical considerations aside, hackers design that anyone who can't imagine a more titillating course to play with their computers than breaking into someone else's has to live pretty losing. Some other reasons crackers are looked down on are discussed in the entries on cracking and phreaking. espy furthermore samurai, dark-side hacker, and hacker ethic. For a portrait of the typical teenage cracker, espy warez d00dz.</i>

    I account myself a hacker because I drudgery on open source software build intricate websites. I acquire no interest in defacing or breaking into systems. Ham radio is hacker culture before there were computers. They acquire convieniently forgotten that fact. Back to your regular eHam discussion thread. Troll on!

      RE: WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by K1YDA on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Where are outright the Peeping Toms these days?? Riding around town in a beat up Escort with a powerful 200mw card and a magmount trying to read other folks email that's where. "Wardrive"-- more dote pencil neck geek looking at somebody's nasty underwear.   RE: WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by KB1JCY on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <quote>Where are outright the Peeping Toms these days?? Riding around town in a beat up Escort with a powerful 200mw card and a magmount trying to read other folks email that's where. "Wardrive"-- more dote pencil neck geek looking at somebody's nasty underwear.</quote>

    You've failed to design the distinction between those who attain it for the technical challenge. I've done wardriving for the sheer intelectual curiosity of understanding propogation on 2.4 gig. Not everyone is reading your spam, er I mean, mail.

    Listen, wardrivers and 802.11b tinkerers acquire the radio bug. They are inquisitive about learning how radio works. Why are screwing the pooch by showing their uglier side and losing a captive audience?

    I've met some script kiddies and wannabes. They turned into actual techies because somebody took the time to parade them The right Path.

      RE: WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by AD7BK on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! So if they used protest channle 3 and with their ham ticket can they race more than the section 15 max? dote 50 watts or even 100 watts? And would they live able to utilize it with WEP? Since section 97 states they can't utilize code, chiphers, or other means of obscuring the intent of the transmission.   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by N5BSD on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! [quote]If they acquire to HACK into that Spokane WiFi network then these "wardrivers and guerilla networkers" are NOT "radio amateurs" through their actions, and are NOT spiritual heirs to anything except the long-standing traditions of theft and vandalism! [/quote]

    Most 'WarDrivers' simply map networks and upload the data to databases I myself acquire done this to espy what is around my locality or between here and Austin when I proceed there (TONS of 2WIRE nodes on the default channel :| )

    Wardriving is not doing any illegal or shady really. now breaking wep keys and accessing networks with out consent from the network owner is something entirely different. So gratify attain not lump outright wardrivers in to the category of crackers, phreakers and the relaxation who attain harm in their practices. To attain this would live dote adage outright Hams are extinct men who attain not attain anything but harp about new technology and only utilize outdated technology for nothing more than a hobby exercise that should acquire long since been deliver to pasture. Since they know this is not so, gratify attain not over generalize.

    That is just my two cents worth of rant. Thanks for the bandwidth.

    73 All

    JohnN5BSD

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KC8VWM on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Wardrivers definetly acquire the "radio bug"

    They are interested in signals and how far they can propogate. Hackers on the other hand is a totally different matter.

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KE7CDV on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! [I'm quoting a lot of different people here, sorry for the confusion this will cuause]

    >WiFi experimenters of 2004 are not unlike wireless>experimenters of 1904.

    Mmm... I deem there's one big difference: In 1904, the mediocre 'wireless experimenter' had a decent shot at significnatly advancing the world's collective learning about wireless communications. In 2004, while it's certainly not _out of the question_ that a WiFi experimenter would attain so, it's _far_ less likely: WiFi is already built on top of _very_ intricate communication techniques. The simple fact is that relatively few people understand that complexity, and hence the likelihood of increasing learning in the are is greatly diminished.

    >Wouldn't it live wintry if,>instead of treating them dote bandits or>undesirables, they institute a course to embrace and Elmer >them to their (and society's) benefit?

    I don't deem anyone's suggested treating them dote bandits, we're trying to design out how to best attract them to dilettante radio -- if there's a point in doing so.

    >What it comes down to is this -- radio is mainly>about communications. What the wifi hackers are >doing>is finding ways to come by a miniscule signal to>propagate as far and as effectively as possible, and>to that discontinue they're bringing new interest to>microwave engineering.

    Yes.

    >They're the ones doing the>homebrew antenna projects, trying to design out how>to milk that ultimate dB of gain out of an antenna;>essentially, they're trying to come by the most out of>microwave QRP.

    The problem is that it's one heck of a lot harder to design out whether or not you're actually making improvements to that microwave QRP system when your main indicator is some highly filtered 'signal strength' indication from software on a PC. I deem the dilettante radio microwave guys acquire it right in that they start with spectum analyzers or at least CW when they're trying to design system improvements -- it gives much more immediate feedback.

    Look at the specifications on www.cantenna.com for their main product:

    Frequency: 2400-2500 MHzGain: 12 dbiBeam Width: Approx. 30 degreesImpedance: 50 OhmMax input: 50 WattsVSWR: <1.5:1 avg.

    Uh huh. What's the polarization? What's the shape of that beam -- is it symmetrical or not? Since when attain people talk about 'average' VSWRs and not maximums?

    These guys are not going to live submitting papers to the IEEE any time soon. :-) There's nothing wrong with that, but they're really in a different league than the W7PUAs and W8JK's of the world; it gets back to the understanding that, no, these guys are not to modern communications what wireless experimenters were in 1904.

    >And they're doing outright that with type->accepted off-the-shelf equipment.

    Well, not always! :-) There's a thriving market for 2.4GHz amplifiers out there, and I doubt a lot of them ever went through sort acceptance.

    >P.S. By the way, the overwhelming majority of War->Drivers are accurate to the hacker-ethic. They merely>seek out the networks and betoken their potential>flaws.

    I deem most War Drivers are driven (pun unintended) by the crave to check their e-mail every 10 minutes and brag to their buddies about how many open access points they found. criterion teenager-crowd motivation for doing just about anything -- being popular! I attain conform that most of it is perfectly benign. (Somewhat dote 'stealing a kiss' from a woman many decades ago, before their cultural decided that that always constitute sexual harassment and will likely leave you in jail.)

    I'm outright for encouraging WiFi'ers to combine the ranks of dilettante radio, it's just unclear to me exactly what _we_ acquire to offer them. Regulations prohibit the main thing they're after -- wireless Internet access who no restrictions on the data being transferred, including whether or not it's encrypted. I will buy the dispute that there's a lot that dilettante radio could give to the WiFi'ers who are interested in propagation at 2.4GHz.

    ---Joel

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by N5PVL on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Quote:-------------------------> PS. K4RAF is not institute in the QRZ database

    Really? and the fact that Fred is deliberately excluding licensed hams from his database is apposite to K4RAF's arguments in what way?

    (PPS: K4RAF *is* in the FCC database.)-------------------------

    Fred tends to filter out obnoxious jerks who troll QRZ, or who parade a stout anti-ham attitude.

    Nuff said.

    Charles, N5PVL

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by AB2RC on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! " PS. K4RAF is not institute in the QRZ database."

    it is listed in the fcc uls database.

      Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KB9YZL on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Well………….In scanning this thread, I espy at least one fine thing coming out of this discussion: The “Holier-Than-Thou” mob now has a choice!

    Whenever they’re passion particularly vitriolic, they can either bash the “CB Crowd” (the extinct standby), or the new “WI-FI Bunch”…………And they don’t even acquire to change their rhetoric! (You know….”Lazy”, “Ignores the Rules”, “Illegal Operation”, yada-yada-yada, blah-blah-blah.)

    Remember:…. Variety is the Spice of Life!

    Kent CarrollKB9YZL“Appliance Operator”

      RE: WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by K4NR on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Quote:

    And would they live able to utilize it with WEP? Since section 97 states they can't utilize code, chiphers, or other means of obscuring the intent of the transmission.

    End Quote

    From the ARRL:

    Quote:

    While IEEE 802.11b allows WEP, an encryption algorithm, dilettante Radio transmissions are characterized as being an open media. That is, dilettante radio operators anticipate and assume that their transmissions are being listened to around the world with no presumption of privacy. And, the FCC even mandates that hams will not encode/encrypt to obscure meaning.

    End Quote

    I thought I read something about using a standardized WEP protocol at http://www.arrl.org/hsmm/wep.html but did not acquire time to attain any further research.

    I furthermore institute the following with seems to contradict the first:

    Quote:

    Thus, the HSMM Working Group respectfully asks the ARRL Board of Directors for theirsupport of this needed regulatory change and urges the Board to advocate the development andfiling of a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) permitting the utilize of encryption and strongsecurity protocols on domestic transmissions above 50 MHz.

    End Quote

    Source: http://www.arrl.org/hsmm/ofdm/WhitePaper7.pdf

    I furthermore read that there is some experimentation happening outside of the 2.4 gigahertz band.

    73 de Tom, K4NR

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K8MHZ on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <Fred tends to filter out obnoxious jerks who troll QRZ, or who parade a stout anti-ham attitude.>

    As many, or more, others acquire voluntarily left QRZ due to Fred's attitude. Fred has a right to attain what he wants, of course, but his attitude has become very narrow minded and monocratic resulting in unexplained banning and guilt by association.

    QRZ has now become a reflection of Fred's morals. eHam is still the best spot to come by outright the views on a theme as it remains a accurate open forum.

    The QRZ database is incomplete, as it only includes hams that acquire not treaded on Fred's delicate psyche.

    Now, back to their original subject...WiFi

    I acquire to admit that I am not up on WiFi. Their city doesn't acquire it, but the city to the south of us does.

    The question of whether or not they should embrace WiFi pioneers is a fine one, but what about hams taking on WiFi as a new ground for exploration? The Internet was fertile ground and has been used by hams as a very fine utensil (anyone disagreeing will acquire to attain so by sending me traffic on the ARES nets. convoke K8MHZ QTH Muskegon, Michigan USA, or by snail mail, as a response on the Internet that hams don't utilize it would live considered silly :) ) and I deem that WiFi would live much putty in the hands of skilled dilettante 'sculptors'.

    I contacted the VP of the wireless provider in the city that has it. It is about 16 miles to the nearest antenna. I asked if he minded if I tried building a elevated gain antenna to try to come by into his system from here. He not only liked the idea, he told me what types of materiel people were using to come by the best coverage. He furthermore was interested in learning of my progress. When I first called him, I knew even less than I know now about WiFi but he filled me in the best he could.

    Today's hams may not live able to build useable gear out of discarded trinkets (some can! I am talking about the mediocre ham) but they know how to build elevated gain antennas, they know a cramped about probagation, they can attain wintry things dote bounce signals, design computer programs to eddy laptops into repeater controllers, etc. I deem if today's ham tackled WiFi dote they did the Internet, WiFi would live so widespread that BPL would acquire no marketable value.

    Granted, WiFi exploration is no spot for someone that thinks HF QRP CW is the respond to every conceivable question, but it is fertile, nearly untilled ground for the advancement of radio.

    We need to realize that digital radio is here to stay. It is not just used for text comms anymore. The benefits of digital voice communications are demonstrated by digital cell phones. attain a cramped research. My Nextel can hit a tower 6 miles away from my basement with 600mW on a daily basis. Try that with a handheld. Analog voice systems will soon become a thing of the past in paid for communications. I assume it will stay with ham radio for another century.

    Ham radio was once the forefront of communication exploration. I presentiment that they are heading toward becoming cramped more than a museum of same. They need to incorporate elevated hurry digital communications into their bag of tricks and WiFi seems to live the spot to attain it.

    Operators in their locality acquire been struggling with Packet radio since before I got my ticket. To this day they can't provide for portable stations without a elevated failure rate. How can this compete with elevated hurry Internet? It can, but it takes more tech savvy than I have. Why not replacing packet with elevated hurry 2.4 gig digital Internet comms? The faculty to transmit big amount of data, including pictures, in a short time very reliably is what people require today. Amatuer radio operators acquire the license and skill to live able to attain it without a utility conncection, if they settle to supplant their digipeaters with elevated hurry 2.4 gig repeaters. Since they would still live sending the selfsame sort of comms that they attain with other modes, they would acquire no understanding to struggle with encryption. I deem it would live very impressive to most anyone to live able to utilize ham radio as a totally wireless replacement for parts of the Internet.

    But then, what attain I know? I acquire been struggling with CW for years and my brain keeps trying to design pictures out of it...

    Stupid brain!!

    Anyway, I deem WiFi or similar could live a saving grace for amateurs.

    And for the handful of you guys that will disclose me to Just Learn the Code...Hey, I'm trying! I will come by it, but I a) acquire cramped utilize for it other than passing my ham tests and b) don't acquire much time to attain it because I expend too much time doing stuff dote eHam and regular ham and drudgery and race the kid around and clean up dog...

    I'll stop there and say

    73,

    Mark K8MHz

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K3ESE on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! What would my wife protest if she saw me embracing a WiFi technician...?   RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K8MHZ on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <What would my wife protest if she saw me embracing a WiFi technician...? >

    Wife...Wifi

    You could disclose her it was a spelling error!!

    K8MHz

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4RAF on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "I deem if today's ham tackled WiFi dote they did the Internet, WiFi would live so widespread that BPL would acquire no marketable value."

    This has been a point of mine since BPL showed up on the map long ago. I still espy BPL as DOA, just examine at SBC FTTX project, particular today on dailywireless.org, which even mentions developing a "system on a chip". You can learn outright about 802.11x, 802.16x & 802.2x wireless on that site.

    Where has outright the experimentation spirit gone? Having a license doesn't affect you know which course the signal comes out of the Pringles can!

    Now instead of considering someone's opinion, research, sustain & personal perspective, the kneejerks race to examine up your call? How childish...

    This gross thread says so much about their current crave to "advance the art".

    ZZZzzzzzzzzzz

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by WA3KYY on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "I've got a WiFi LAN at home, and acquire to race 256 bit WEP to maintain out unwanted visitors and drive-by networkers (a neighbor kid broke my 128-bit WEP). Even that plane of security won't maintain out someone with lots of time, a WiFi laptop, and some network busting software that is available on the Internet."

    Don't you utilize MAC plane access lists on your WiFi access point/router? Short of modifying the hardware to clone the MAC address of the WiFi cards in your home, this blocks others from connecting.

    I acquire my home WiFi LAN set up that course and acquire never had anyone access my LAN. I furthermore utilize a discrete SSID that is not advertised along with 256-bit WEP encryption.

    73,Mike

      RE: WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by K1YDA on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! And before you had WiFi to answer your"intellectual" interest in 2.4 gig propagationdid you expend a lotta time evesdropping on thewireless phones up there-- outright in the interest of science of course?   RE: WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by K1YDA on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Another thought, I deem WiFi could live just the thing to deliver the lid (no pun) on BPL in many areasbut is bragging about the weaknesses in the WiFi system going to wait on or damage the BPL interests sell theirstuff? If WiFi really takes off are they going to acquire to give up a company to it just to maintain BPL at bay?   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KC8VWM on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I acquire installed my Wifi behind my firewall router.

    My network is therefore inaccesable through the WiFi transciever to my PC's.

    This arrangement provides for additional security and keeps my networked PC's out of the "loop" through the "external" WiFi system.

    Users that can hack past the WEP security feature on my Wifi transciever will only find themselves up against the router's firewall. They might access the outside internet connection, but thats about it.

    They would acquire the selfsame plane of rigor gaining access into my network from the "outside" using the Wifi connection, as they would if they tried it remotely from some spot over the internet.

    Not a likely proposition.

    In fact, I can even leave the WIFi tranciever wide open with cramped worry. The worst case scenerio is that they might come by access and utilize my internet connection.

    73

    Charles - KC8VWM

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by K4IQT on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "Don't you utilize MAC plane access lists on your WiFi access point/router?" (WA3KYY)

    Thanks for making that point. Yes, I attain now. I foolishly thought I could lock my barn with a hasp and a nail, but discovered the hard course the only course to maintain the horse thieves out is with actual locks. In other words, WEP alone is not enough. Of course, MAC plane access lists are not foolproof either, since anybody really equipped for hacking in can find a course through spoofing, if nothing else.

    I would hearten experimenters to tweak or modify their hardware and software for new applications or better performance. My initial post here was based on the language used by KB1KKC, "wardrivers", "guerilla networkers", "hackers", outright of which mention these days to individuals intent on defeating security measures and/or surreptitiously using services installed by and paid for by someone else. At one time "hacking" did affect about the selfsame thing as reverse engineering, but the signification has changed because of what many "hackers" did with their resulting information.

    It's simply that I don't anticipate to acquire someone who is uninvited and unwelcome picknicking in my back yard, even without my knowledge. And it seems that the only solution is to build a bigger fence.

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WA6BFH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Joel (KE7CDV), There is nothing that limits these guys from doing similar researches (as some acquire claimed to live involved in) on dilettante Radio. In fact, there is a stout need for them to coy away from the toy RF stuff they are playing with, and attain actual microwave studies.

    There is a lot of SHF spectrum out there that could live used for some really wide bandwidth elevated baud rate communication. The regulations attain not forestall this! If they are worried about that, just drop an e-mail to the FCC to disclose them the communication protocall they intend to use, and zipzap, proceed to town!

    I will observation further after I acquire read the relaxation of the most recent commentaries!

    WA6BFH 18:57 UTC

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by W6TH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

    Looks dote the no coders, WIFI and the BPL'ers want to come by rid of ham radio. WOW, ham radio is going down in defeat. Is there no-one to deliver the hobby?

    .:

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by K4IQT on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Where is Andy Kaufman when they need him??? (Mighty Mouse)

    .....Oh....

    Well, in that case, where is John Kerry when they need him???

    .....Oh....

    Sorry to hear that, too.

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KB1JCY on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <quote id="w6th">Looks dote the no coders, WIFI and the BPL'ers want to come by rid of ham radio. WOW, ham radio is going down in defeat. Is there no-one to deliver the hobby?</quote>

    Yeah, it's called you and everyone in the community. It starts by getting off their sanctimonious wars about CW and what is considered "real dilettante Radio". The spectre of BPL is real. They can fight amongst ourselves and lose the ARS or drudgery together.

    /me disgusted with the implication that my licence class = my worth in dilettante Radio.

      Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WA6BFH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Lets examine at this from a different angle for a minute. To paraphrase Brian's first thought (not to deliver words in your mouth kid) 'Wow, this WiFi stuff is really cool, Ham's should embrace this, afterall how else can anyone experiment with SHF'. He could acquire scratched his chin and asked himself, 'how could I build up a really wintry broad bandwidth communications system, that would beat the pants off this WiFi stuff'?

    Several years ago my club started to develop a elevated hurry broad bandwidth 'Communications Data Project'. The system involved the utilize of 10 GHz Gunnplexer transceivers, of the sort typically institute in commercial door openers, dote those institute on the doors of grocery stores. These units provided about 20 to 100 mW into a Horn antenna with 10's of dB's of gain. They furthermore institute a collection of diminutive parabolic dish antennas, about the size of a Frisbee, that would acquire added some 30 dB's to the RF discontinue of the hardware.

    We designed a very nice I.F. (thats Intermediate Frequency) circuit board at 50 MHz (another minimally utilized Ham band). These boards incorporated the power supply, and furthermore the modulator for the Gunnplexer. Additional realestate was provided for on the PCB's to allow other logic circuitry to live easily built up by the experimenter. Also, the filter network on the I.F. could live unplugged on a submerge header, and replaced with a Murata 6 KHz bandwidth filter, so as to design the I.F. furthermore a very cute cramped DX receiver on 6 Meters. I was laying out a 6 Meter transmitter board, waiting for replies to gain in on the project.

    We were offering the Gunnplexers free of permeate for anyone who purchased an I.F kit. They were selling these kits at cost! THEY HAD NO TAKERS! You can still find the write-ups of their plans on the Internet, attain a Google search. The only interest shown was from some European Ham's that wanted only the Gunnplexers, which they would not live tax'ed into oblivion for importing, because those were scrap surplus. U.S. Ham's showed no interest at all!

    I could proceed on to point out the fallicy in the understanding that "Hackers", or "Crackers" are really a benign bunch but, I'm certain outright these hackers acquire read, "Masters of Deception" by Michelle Slatalla and Joshua Quittner. This bespeak sits on the shelf next to my dilettante Radio "Handbook", my Shrader on "Electronic Communication" and other books on radio and technology.

    .- .-. .--- --- .... -. (the first digital mode)

      Hackers vs Crackers, gratify learn the difference.   by K9DI on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Hi,Wayne K9DI es Leader Dog Riot here. I've beenreading this thread and one glaring oversight stands out.The perjorative utilize of the term "hacker". Hackers are not evil or malicious. The malicious ones are known as "crackers".The definition of a hacker is someonewanting to learn, experiment and explore a theme (usually used in conjunction with computers). By this definition every ham that modifies a rig, makes an antenna, or just tinkers with their gear to come by the best performance out of it is a "hacker".A "cracker", on the other hand (like Kevin Mitnick), is someone that exploits known or newly discovered flaws in hardware or software to attain malicious things.The above definitions are loosely paraphrased from the original jargon file.Vy 73deWayne K9DIk9di (at) k9di (dot) orgP.S. proud to live a "Hacker" (in the classical sense)   RE: Hackers vs Crackers, gratify learn the differen   by KC8VWM on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Wayne has a convincing point.

    I recollect when I ran a BBS in the 1980's that the term "Hacker" was actually a person that was highly respected and knowledgable about early PC's and thier software applications.

    I even recollect one of the first computer stores I ever seen was actually called:

    "Harry the Hacker Computers"

    The appellation denoted a friendly spot with knowledgeable staff.

    Later on after the "Mitnick" case, the term "hacker" took a downturn because of the mainstream media's new interpretation.

    I deem the term "Hacker" was later replaced with the word "Guru" Essentially, they are supposed to affect the selfsame exact thing.

    Perhaps "Guru" will become a nefarious word someday just dote "Hacker" did.

    73

    Charles - KC8VWMLatenight BBSFidonet 221:00: ?? I forget now..lol

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WA6BFH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I institute the exact subpage on the Tech Bench Elmers web site that refers to the Microwave Data Project (which was offered in 1997 by the way).

    http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2775/microwave_notice.html

    73 all! I deem I've had enough of this line of conjecture! de John

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by W6TH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

    KB1JCY

    Don't feel nefarious Doug, you can shove license down my throat. I can abide that. espy you when I come by to Berlin, NH.

    73, W6TH

      Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by N8EKT on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I AM A HAM THAT furthermore WORKS FOR A ISP.WE acquire BEEN INSTALLING 900MHZ, 2.4GHZ, AND 5.8GHZ WIFIFOR SEVERAL YEARS.IT SEEMS TO ME THE HAMS acquire CLEARLY DROPPED THE BALL WHEN IT COMES TO WIRELESS DATA AND THESE BANDS.WITH THE RF POWER LIMITS HAM'S ARE ALLOWED ON THESE BANDS, much COVERAGE COULD live HAD AT A REASONABLE COST.   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KB1JCY on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <quote id="w6th">KB1JCY

    Don't feel nefarious Doug, you can shove license down my throat. I can abide that. espy you when I come by to Berlin, NH.

    73, W6TH</quote>

    My what a constructive post. W6TH r0x0rz teh big one !!11!!1 :rolleyes:

    Who's shoving stuff down your throat? license is a election you make, OM. You can choose to maintain things stirring forward or engage in a jihad. I've chosen to stir forward.

    The point is that the continuing jihad attitude is not serving the ARS. It's sheer QRM and people stop communicating about key issues dote licence resturctuing and recruiting the next generation of amateurs. attain you conform that the ARS is in jeopardy of being wiped off the air? attain you thing the flame wars on boards dote this one are helping their cause?

    73 de KB1JCY

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by AE6IP on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > Fred tends to filter out obnoxious jerks who troll> QRZ, or who parade a stout anti-ham attitude.

    It would live nice if that were true; and it is what Fred used to claim. But enough people acquire called him on the distinction between his claim and the reality of the site, that he has recently taken to giving a more honest explanation. You come by bounced if you 'piss off' (Fred's term) one of the moderators.

    Glen, for examplle, flat out refused to sanction one of the most obnoxious jerks on the board, simply because he happened to conform with the jerk's position.

    On the other hand, Glen banned contributors that Glen himself had identified as sticking to the issues, simply because he disagreed with them.

    Fred, of course, has ever right to ban whomever he wants, but I'm glad that he's now at least being honest about why he bans people.

    It's too nefarious that so many people look to deem that being allowed/banned on QRZ indicates anything other than a willingness to question sacred cows.

    It's even sadder that so many people deem that there's only one accurate view of ham radio and that expressing any other view is "strong anti-ham".

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KB9YZL on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! As irritating as I acquire institute Marty to live in the past, I find that I acquire to conform with him when he says:

    >>“It's even sadder that so many people deem that there's only one accurate view of ham radio and that expressing any other view is "strong anti-ham".<<

    Kent CarrollKB9YZL“Appliance Operator”

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KB1JCY on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Sacred cows design fine burgers, Marty. Pass the salsa. ;-)   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by W6TH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! KB1JCYDo you conform that the ARS is in jeopardy of being wiped off the air? attain you thing the flame wars on boards dote this one are helping their cause?-------------------------------------------------

    No Doug, I don't believe that ham radio has anything to attain with EHAM or QRZ.COM. As long as there is income coming into the Gov't, there will always live a certain interest to acquire and to hold. They will acquire ham radio as long as the mfg's are in the need of income as well. Ham radio is built around money and when there are no longer any buyers of ham equipment, ham radio will diminish. My sentiment and I grasp ham radio as I would a grain of salt as it is no longer ham radio but shove to talk. These $10,000 radios are an example and as long as there are buyers, there will always live ham radio.

    Then again, should ham radio become invalid, so what? They acquire plenty of new ideas and inventions to maintain us occupied.

    .: 73, W6TH

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by W6TH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

    AE6IP

    I heard from the grape vine that QRZ.COM could not composit and overloaded Fred's hard drive and he couldn't afford another. So Fred deleted a few dozen with sorrow, but it had to live done.

    May live when he gets more donations he will grasp outright those back that he deleted. I certain hope so and being the sort of gentleman he claims to be, I am certain he will give outright a second chance.

    .:

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by AE6IP on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > May live when he gets more donations he will grasp all> those back that he deleted. I certain hope so and being> the sort of gentleman he claims to be, I am certain he> will give outright a second chance.

    but will he give us outright rides in his Cessna?

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KB1JCY on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <quote id="AE6IP">but will he give us outright rides in his Cessna?</quote>

    Feh. diminutive planes and me don't mix.

      Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WA2JJH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Cessna-very pedestrian. Twin engine private jet is another.

    Moving right along. I understand many acquire been kicked off of QRZ ,consider it a statement of free speech.

    802b is built into every new laptop. One cannot wait on but hit the scan key. I come by 3 open networks just by parking on WIFI CH-6.

    If a system is open, it is public access. I did not travel in a car. I just turned on my IBM laptop and the open networks appeared on my screen in my apt.

    Many that buy those 802B $70 routers from radio shack are just consumers. They acquire no interest in ham radio. I got tired of getting my modem card ripped out when I moved the computer. I bought a router for my own use.

    No one has hacked me...yet. Many times it is just people's built in 802B auto activation, that discontinue up in my router. I attain not need 12megabit wide connections.

    What many hams ARE doing to fight BPL, simply leave thier wireless router open. My electric company is going to offer BPL for $35/month.

    Having an open system is not always ignorance.My 802.b router always on, is a deterent to my neighbors getting BPL. Rat Shack furthermore sells the booster amplifiers. I acquire no understanding what the power output is.

    That is where I espy Ham Radio falling into WIFI asBPL prevention. Nothing more, nothing less.

    I furthermore recollect when a Hacker was just a hard working computer operator. They would examine for open doors on the internet. They would attain NO HARM.

    The hacker of today is proud to live a silver collarcriminal. Very unfortunite indeed. Robin Hood gave back to the poor.

    The silver collar hacker will stir on to bunco, electronic credit card theft, and getting extra minutes out of stolen pre-paid cell phones.

    As others pointed out 900MHZ, 1.2, and 2.4 gig were ham radio frequencies. utilize it or lax it. The selfsame could happen with HF. Perhaps the FCC will legalize those 100W 10-12M radio's. It would live dote GMRS for truckers.

    Try 10M from time to time. It can live great. It can live dead.

    Bottom line is that any other under utilized company will live taken away.

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KA4KOE on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I supervision for my wifi 802.11b network. examine at my profile picture on QRZ (I haven't been banned, mainly because QRZ is a poor second to Eham, and I don't frequent it), and you'll espy my D Link router.

    My wife can surf from her laptop in bed, and says the wireless card for her laptop was the best gift I've given her.

    Feeleep

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KC8ZTJ on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Wait a minute, seems dote I just took a test that talked about radio amateurs and radio control. I must acquire missed something. Hmmm. That said, I would acquire to agree. Wifi is a kindred spirit. I acquire been in PDA users group meetings where they discussed yagi antennas and signal propagation. The distinction in the PDA user group and my Ham Radio group is largely a matter of age.   RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by AC0H on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <<"Why bother with a license to restrict you when you can acquire much more actual fun without endlessly arguing over rules & seeking approval.">>

    Maybe they need to question the question, why attain people deem it's "fun" driving around trying to burst into unprotected or mis-managed WiFi networks?

    What happens when these people attain come by licenses? How will they fit into a hobby that DOES require following "rules and seeking approval"?

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WA6BFH on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! WiFi is a 'kindred spirit to Ham Radio' -- give me a flipping burst -- LOL! I acquire been to some of these Pringles can sessions. Its like, wow man, it really seemed to drudgery better when I stood on my head! Thats their understanding of 'signal propagation studies'.

    I'm more worried about the Ham radio community though with comments like, 'try 10 Meters, sometimes it works fine but, sometimes not. How about researching siganl propagation to learn about Sporadic E layer propagation, or how the Earth/Sun position works over the various months of the year and can enhance F layer skip, even as they decline in the 11 year sunspot cycle.

    I liked AC0H's comment, basically begging the question 'why attain they want people that are wedded to breaking the rules'. They acquire lost much of the SHF spectrum! They will lose more unless they develop really wintry uses and practices on it ourselves. Of course, that does not fit easily into the new Ham Radio view on plug and play!

      RE: their bands, their interference   by KC0LTV on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! What this thread is showing is the ham radio community's unwillingness to come by with the times, something they need to attain if they wish to survive! There's nothing wrong with WiFi as a hobby. With ham radio, one could grasp handicap of their allocation here by using the higher powers they are allowed to use. Of course, the whiny, close-minded, and judgmental mob will espy 2.4 Ghz as kiddie-land to live avoided in lieu of the "real" 1200 bps VHF packet links the old-timers use...   RE: their bands, their interference   by K4RAF on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "Maybe they need to question the question, why attain people deem it's "fun" driving around trying to burst into unprotected or mis-managed WiFi networks?"

    *** elevated Horse Alert*** Where is wardriving defined as "trying to burst into networks"?

    AirSnort/NetStumbler is the automated logging of Access Points, SSID's, Signal Strength, signal-to-noise, channel & if the AP is running WEP. If you add a GPS to the setup, you can map the results of any signal survey using Popular mapping programs. I utilize my laptop in the truck without ever having to palpate anything, much dote cellular drive testing.

    No "breaking in" involved, no harm done. As someone already said, if you can associate to an open network, you are being invited to utilize the connection. What does ham radio offer in parallel that isn't at least 20 years old? Packet? : )

    Perhaps you might try to educate yourself before your broad graze runs out of rosey paint for your tired extinct cliches'...

      listen, you young punks   by NN2U on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! As a member in fine standing of the CWA (the Century Wireless Association), I feel that no-code, WiFi and BPL will live the ruination of ham radio.

    Of course, in 1910 I predicted that wireless telephony would live the downfall ot the radio hobby, and personally traveled to the home of Dr. Lee DeForest, set fire to a bag of dog poop, knocked on his door and ran away.

    Following the second World War, against my stern warnings, ham radio operators began using single sideband. Suddenly their precious bands were filled with unintelligible gibberish. Were their government not sedulous with Korea and Joe Stalin's commies, they doubtless would acquire taken away their bands due to indecent misuse and abominable operating procedure.

    All the so-called "advances" from then to today acquire steadily chipped away at the cornerstone of dilettante radio. gross portions of their bands are now filled with odd bleeps, chirps and deedle-deedles that anywise translate into idle text chitchat when connected to one of those infathomable computing boxes. This union of electric calculating box and ham radio transmitters is surely the drudgery of the devil, and a major contributor to the weakening moral fabric of their nation.

    All you young whippersnappers look to supervision about is "connectivity," as if ham radio was outright about bringing people together. Of course, they accurate hams know that dilettante radio is really about exchanging signal reports, gas prices, rainfall amounts, and minute details of their ongoing physical deterioration. That and spending the better section of every weekend screaming "CQ CONTEST" into their trusty extinct Astatics until we're blue from need of oxygen.

    Every day, at 3 pm, I combine my honorable dilettante friends in the Greater Springfield Traffic Net And Grim Reaper Roll Call, and for two hours a day they greet one another with a hearty round of "no traffic"s and "any further check-ins?" This is the accurate public service for which dilettante radio was created, and they are proud to live on the ready in the very actual likelihood that an emergency takes out every landline, cellphone, coaxial cable, fiber optic pipe, public-service repeater, and VHF handheld in the United States.

    We carry on this thankless tradition while you young hoodlums are roaming around the neighborhoods in your trucks attacking the computing machines of people you don't even know with killer viruses and electric mail messages offering discounts on potions which unnaturally stimulate the masculine sexual organs.

    You should live ashamed of yourselves. That is not the spirit of dilettante radio.

    Very soon my lifelong predictions will gain accurate and they will outright lose their wonderful hobby to a generation of tinkerers who acquire no respect for the countless hours they acquire spent sitting in their cellars adage nothing to one another.

    Bah!

    Yours in disgust,

    Elbert T. Grumpinfutz(call withheld by request)

      RE: their bands, their interference   by K4IQT on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "No 'breaking in' involved, no harm done. As someone already said, if you can associate to an open network, you are being invited to utilize the connection."

    CJ, the problem is that most of those folks who are running open networks attain not know it - they just bought a WAP at Best Buy and a card for their laptop, and are unaware that any wardriver can access their open network.

    There is nothing wrong with locating the networks, hunting them, measuring them, documenting them or whatever, but many wardrivers are looking for a network to explore. That is, to most people, electronic trespassing - just because they "left the door unlocked". They may acquire personal data on shared resources on their network, and deem they are protected just because they acquire routers on their wireless and broadband links, and maybe some easily-breakable firewalls on their clients.

    BTW, it's titillating how this thread has meandered away from WiFi and now borders on the future of dilettante radio!

    <chuckle>

    --K4IQTTerry

      RE: their bands, their interference   by AC0H on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <<"There is nothing wrong with locating the networks, hunting them, measuring them, documenting them or whatever, but many wardrivers are looking for a network to explore. That is, to most people, electronic trespassing - just because they "left the door unlocked". They may acquire personal data on shared resources on their network, and deem they are protected just because they acquire routers on their wireless and broadband links, and maybe some easily-breakable firewalls on their clients.">>

    Exactly.

    Most wardrivers roam around town trying to find WiFi hotspots which is fine and good. Most of them furthermore cost the best signal spots. Why if not to gain back to try and ILLEGALLY access the network?

    This has nothing to attain with an ISP, individual, or company, (Starbucks comes to mind) from offering their network freely. We're talking about people sneaking around with frequency counters, GPS recievers, and laptops trying to access closed networks. modest and simple.

    <<"Perhaps you might try to educate yourself before your broad graze runs out of rosey paint for your tired extinct cliches'.">>

    OK sonny I'll attain that.Oh wait,..........I attain this stuff for a living, keeping punks out of networks I mean.

      RE: their bands, their interference   by W4CNG on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! You don't need frequency counters and GPS receivers to find the networks, just a simple handheld device called a PDA with WiFi. BTW, anyone who thinks 50Watt output power on a network works, better deem more than twice, occasions who cares if you can live heard 20 miles away from that Mountain-top location when you cannot hear the 200MW laptop 15 miles away trying to talk back. Sounds dote an Aligator 2 meter repeater to me, does not quite add up. Wireless in more than one figure is here to stay, there are lots of varieties to ride on.Steve W4CNG Surfing the free and abundant Spots.   Hug a WiFi-er today   by W2EV on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Steve wrote, "...anyone who thinks 50Watt output power on a network works, better deem more than twice..."

    Right on, Steve. This is e-x-a-c-t-l-y why it is advantageous for dilettante Radio to find a course to embrace those who are exploiting the Part15 users of the WiFi frequencies. They acquire scholarly many lessons over the years...lessons that can live built upon.

    1. --- Cellular radio and APRS are live examples of where elevated power and long distances for the purpose of uplinking users to a network are nefarious ideas. On the other hand, it's a much course to link "cells" of activity together...as a backbone.

    2. --- FM Repeater sub-bands and their regional coordination are live examples of how to consume spectrum and setup unnecessary conflict. On the other hand, a national procedure for digital spectrum usage could serve us well.

    Why attain WiFi DX enthusiasts attain what they do? For the selfsame understanding they attain what they do. It's fun and exciting. They are limiting their ranks by taking a "holier than thou" viewpoint of their activity.

    Embrace the WiFi experimenters. They are sever from the selfsame cloth. Elmer them into the hobby and inject more energy into your club than a bottle plenary of Geritol ever could.

    Ev Tupis, W2EV

      Wrong poop   by KA4KOE on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "Of course, in 1910 I predicted that wireless telephony would live the downfall ot the radio hobby, and personally traveled to the home of Dr. Lee DeForest, set fire to a bag of dog poop, knocked on his door and ran away."

    Dr. Lee didn't invent radio telephony. You should've vandalized Fessenden's lab. ITS outright YOUR FAULT...WRONG HOUSE, YOU DUMMY!!!

    FEELEEEP

      RE: Hug a WiFi-er today   by WA6BFH on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! W2ev. Ev, contact me directly, and I will wait on you with any explanation I can muster with such issues.

    73! de JohnPSIs there a understanding why your appellation and callsign are so similar?

      RE: Wrong poop   by AE6IP on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > sever me some slack. I was only 9.

    Your previous post was one of the funniest things I've ever read on a ham forum. Thanks,

    Marty

      Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WA2JJH on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! yEah, so what they meanderd,we went out of scope. they took other sociable issue's to the table. BFD!It is indeed fun.   Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KA2YBP on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Looking down the nose of your code-requirements and degrading hobby, you protest NO to WIFI'ers... You said no to CBers, you said no to codeless licenses... espy a pattern. Why not embrace WIFI, it is the newest blood, perhaps the ultimate wave of people to come by interest in a 'hobby', simply said... It's wireless, isn't that what the ham hobby is about. OOOps, I forgot, it's a service. I listen to the Indiana traffic net meet daily on 75m, roll convoke list of their telephone directory of anyone who has checked into their net... Bla Bla.. No traffic today, big suprise. Strap the code requirements close to you and wait for the next contact. Ever examine at the mediocre age of a ham, this number will never design infinity, but it's stirring up. come by with the program.   Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WA2JJH on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Brien, sometimes you acquire to deliver the shoe on the otherhand.(hi-hi)

    Sometimes a repeater club may acquire had distress with a habitual jammer. They paid for the repeater, duplexer, antenna(s) snd hard line.

    If they furthermore acquire to pay rent for the space the expenses can come by very high. Lets protest it is a 60W repeater. If they are in an locality with lots of Imod,they acquire to utilize a PL. It could still live public.If it

    If it is DPL, then chances are it is a private machine. You can set up your own repeater some day,and live just as exclusive.

    In NYC outright repeaters acquire to utilize PL. So much IMOD that carrier squelch will not do. Most of the new radio's allow you you scan for the PL or DPL.

      Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by VE3WGO on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! At least somebody is making used of the 13 cm (2300-2450 MHz) band. Hams are definitely not overloading it, that's for sure!

    Comparing the 802.11b channelization, http://home.comcast.net/~sofa.spud/802.11_freqs/802.11freqs.html

    with 13cm ham bandplans such as the one they acquire here in Canada, http://www.rac.ca/service/13cmrev1.htm

    it can live seen that WiFi Channels 1 through 6 Fall into their band.

    We need to examine into the WiFi transceiver cards to espy if they are adaptable to any modes other than the OFDM that they use. Maybe it's not workable (single chip does almost everything), but it's at least worth trying...

    Rather than fearing, rejecting, or bashing WiFiers as some acquire done on this thread, they really need to question these WiFi experimenters how it's done.

    They acquire innovated. acquire you seen the Pringle's chip can waveguide antenna? fine gain figures. WiFiers came up with that.

    Lots of fine stuff is on the net about WiFi technology. Here is a site that includes a huge treasure trove of UHF/microwave ham radio and WiFi experimeters info and construction articles, at the Green Bay PPR site at http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/

    Take it outright in folks. If hams aren't using the bands, there are lots of other groups who are...

    WiFi furthermore operates in the 5.8 GHz band. WiMAX (see this month's CQ Magazine for a much introductory article by KA3JIJ) will furthermore operate in 2.5, 3.5, 5.8, and higher bands, inside or adjacent to ham bands. it is the next coming wireless trend, and is just making it throuhg the international standards bodies now, and some companies are getting the technology worked out. Hopefully this will lead to cheaper, more readily available components and building blocks for hams to build on, just dote military surplus did in the 50s and 60s.

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by AB2M on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! There were a few posts about a zillion or two back that were talking about how some folks acquire "secured" their 802.11 networks from hackers/crackers/miscreants (choose your term).

    Let's come by a few things straight:

    MAC Address filtering is ZERO security except for someone who is clueless about WiFi. Almost any WLAN card can live ASSIGNED a MAC address. In Linux, this is a trivial one-line command. Someone who wants to subvert your security will sniff your WLAN (easy!), come by the required MAC addresses, and utilize one. Unless you monitor that WLAN 24x7, you will NEVER know.

    To the OM who installed his WiFi outside his firewall and is delighted that the only thing that can live accessed is the Internet, let me pose a few scenarios for you. Let me know which one you feel more comfortable with:

    A. Your WLAN is used to send a zillion pieces of spam, causing your ISP to cancel your account.

    B. Your WLAN is used to perpetrate an beset against a corporate or government network. It will live traced back to you. Or, maybe it's just used to launch the latest virus or worm.

    C. Your WLAN is used to traffic in child pornography, which is then noticed as section of an FBI sting operation. FBI agents gain to your door with a warrant and haul you and your PC off.

    If you deem that spammers, hackers/crackers, and pedophiles aren't doing this today, then I suggest a lengthy session of Googling.

    73, Joe AB2M

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4RAF on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "We need to examine into the WiFi transceiver cards to espy if they are adaptable to any modes other than the OFDM that they use."

    Why attain they need to reinvent some parallel to OFDM?

    If the ASIC chipset only supports OFDM, where is the election going to gain from?

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4JSR on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Marty asked, "but will he give us outright rides in his Cessna?"Only if they smoke the peace Piper with him.It would help, also, to senc him a Belanca Check.After all, it's only Mooney!

    Sorry, Marty. The Devil made me attain that! ;-)

    73, Cal K4JSR

      RE: listen, you young punks   by K4JSR on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Grumpinfutz for FCC Chairman!

    Until I read this thread, I thought that Wife Eye iswhat KG4RJM used on me at hamfests to maintain me from buying too many goodies!

    You youngsters deem things are tough now? Back in the day when W4CNG and I still had hair on top of ourheads, they were soooooo tough that they burned their own warts off with their spark gap transmitters!

    Wife eye, indeed! Next thing they will want is for usto come by licenses and maybe even know something!

    Hey, Gruminfutz, you disclose 'em that they are outright a bunch of girlie-hams! teach these dank behind the ears types some respect! This is serious!Trust me!

    Go away and leave me alone, now! I need to pout alone!

    A. Nony MouseRat Cheer, Ga.

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by AE6IP on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > MAC Address filtering is ZERO security except for> someone who is clueless about WiFi.

    Yes, no, and maybe. MAC filtering, by itself, only reduces your exposure slighlty. However, when used with other techniques, it helps. They only allow two MAC addresses here, and both machines are usually on. So if someone attempts a spoof, it become apparrent very quickly.

    WiFi security sucks. Key size doesn't matter much, as there are bugs in key exchange protocols that can live exploited for replay attacks. There are proprietary tricks that help, but they circumscribe you to one vendor's hardware.

    As I've said, my technique involves reducing the range of my WAP, so that it can't live heard outside of house and yard. If you wanna utilize my wifi, you gotta gain onto my property.

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by AE6IP on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > Sorry, Marty. The Devil made me attain that! ;-)

    bad devil. no cookie. ;)

      Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by W6BKY on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend! NN2U,

    "Very soon my lifelong predictions will gain accurate and they will outright lose their wonderful hobby to a generation of tinkerers who acquire no respect for the countless hours they acquire spent sitting in their cellars adage nothing to one another."

    Well said!!

    - but -

    In your cogent description of "Real Hams", you forgot to embrace those of us who know "real" Ham radio so well that they no longer bother to come by on the air at all.

    Heck, most ;aof us "real" Hams don't even acquire a rig or antenna (the retirement home doesn't allow antennas, so why acquire a rig?).

    We simply acquire their Ham Club meetings at their favorite restaurant and Enjoy endless re-telling of the selfsame "good extinct days" stories for the umpteenth time.

    Sometimes, the stories even acquire something to attain with radio, or communications, or some such - but not often.

    Now, that's actual Ham radio!

    I could protest lots more, but it's time for my pills.

    73, Dick, W6BKY

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4RAF on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend! From front page of http://www.dailywireless.org

    Wi-LAN today introduced its pre-WiMax LIBRA MX, for Wireless OFDM in the 3.5 GHz range...

    http://www.wi-lan.com/products/libramx.htm

      Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KF4URO on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Well, for what its worth. I originally got into ham back when the internet was not as huge and omnipresent as it is now.I had completely gotten out of HAM until I got into 802.11 through drudgery ( i am a net engineer ) . Now Im outright stoked to read about the nitty gritty modulation techniques etc. Another friend of mine at drudgery who is into digital communications, packet etc has been helping spur me along and now I just picked up my first HT since I gave away or sold off my gear about two years ago. Knowing basic radio theory really helps out and I cant wait as 802.11 progresses and I come by to read about outright of the killer inovations that it provides. Maybe one day I can find time to build some home rolled microwave digital gear.IMHO, if you want ham to grow, design it relavent to the current generation. 802.11 and microwave communication has never been more relavent and embracing it and teaching people about ethics , antenna and rf theory would attain more for the ham community then anything EVER has.

    73's

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KF4URO on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend! A quick tip, utilize WPA with radius, acquire it renew the key ever 5 minutes. That pretty much eliminates every applicable security exploit out there. If you are actual parinoid you could utilize a VPN client/server and some clevor routing to nail it down even tighter. Dont allow excess coverage and design fine utilize of directional antennas if you want to come by in a certain section of the yard.Just my .02, now back to the topic.   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KC0GQT on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend! There are a few diffrent types of hackers...There are those who try to come by into systems for the fun of it. A fine network admin might live called a hacker.

    There are those who attain it to filch information.

    Some are called White Hat Hackers who are on the fine side and report security stuff to the admins, then there are the Black Hat Hackers who are the nefarious people.WiFi can live used for fine things and bad. It just depends on who uses it I guest.

    Check out 2600, 2600.com

    And for those who protest WiFi is NOT dilettante radio, you better check your facts. Channels 1-6 Fall right on the 2.4g band.

    Hope this helps!

      Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WA2JJH on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend! wHITE HAT BLACKHAT

    Some are just SILVER COLLER criminals!They can mess up your system if you attain not acquire explorer and 3erd party fire wall.

    They assemble sensitive corperate info.Some of these WAR DRIVERS attain not need the money either.They just dote anarcy.

    A few are as nefarious as terrorist. In fact, L-cheesa has been known to acquire cosidered messing with WLANS.

    I am not adage outright at all. I will often scan any location for an open NETWORK. No war-driven either.All the 802a/b/g cards acquire a scan funtion for networks open to the public.

    Some are open to attract customers, dote STAR SCHMUCKS. Some are just so non savvy about their $79 blue box from Radio SHCLOCK. Plug and Play.They acquire not a clue of who could mess them up, or filch sensitive info.

    It is dote the extinct analog cell phones one could receive on a scanner. Now blocked!

      Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WA2JJH on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend! wHITE HAT BLACKHAT

    Some are just SILVER COLLER criminals!They can mess up your system if you attain not acquire explorer and 3erd party fire wall.

    They assemble sensitive corperate info.Some of these WAR DRIVERS attain not need the money either.They just dote anarcy.

    A few are as nefarious as terrorist. In fact, L-cheesa has been known to acquire cosidered messing with WLANS.

    I am not adage outright at all. I will often scan any location for an open NETWORK. No war-driven either.All the 802a/b/g cards acquire a scan funtion for networks open to the public.

    Some are open to attract customers, dote STAR SCHMUCKS. Some are just so non savvy about their $79 blue box from Radio SHCLOCK. Plug and Play.They acquire not a clue of who could mess them up, or filch sensitive info.

    It is dote the extinct analog cell phones one could receive on a scanner. Now blocked!

      As with radio, it is outright about INTENT !   by K4RAF on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend! As with any radios, you can play "what IF..." outright day. I could utilize a ham radio to communicate or to jam. Does that design outright hams jammers?

    The following statement, from NetStumbler's author, states his intent clearly to underscore more common ground than most acknowledge. This ground lies unclaimed by most of the folks posting in this thread:

    {Shipley}: "Most recently I invented Wardriving, while I am not the first person to proceed out and search for open wireless LANS (a few before me ventured around with in a with a laptop, pencil & paper manualy scribbling notes). I was first to automate it outright with dedicated software and a GPS. When I started this project the usage of WEP was around 15%, after going public with my findings, just one year later, WEP usage is now about 33%. This is fine to know, that people are getting the message."

      Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KG4ZIE on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I am a computer guy and I utilize 802.11 technologies daily at home and at work. At home I even utilize it for dilettante radio how you may ask. Well about 1000ft away from my house is my friends repeater. It just so happens that this repeater is on IRLP. I know many hams attain not dote IRLP and protest that it is not radio however I disagree as I still utilize my radio to access it. To come by this node on the air they utilize a 802.11 link. Not only attain they race the IRLP through this link but they utilize it for VoIP (Voice over IP which is basically a phone line running across the internet). So basically from a 802.11 link they provide people with a course to talk outright over the world and the utilize of a phone. In their situation they can not get/afford a internet connection and/or a phone line up on the site so this setup works much for us.   RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend! NY7Q told us:"SIMPLE, It is not ham radio. wifi operators usually attain what they want and burst the rules...so I don't want them around."

    Exactly what section 15 rules acquire they broke? Content?

    "Ham radio is radio, computers are computers....its simple.."

    You best come by out from behind those vacuum tubes and grasp a examine at some of the radios being advertised in QST.... they examine alot dote computers to me!

      Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Well, once again I should acquire read the entire thread before my earlier content, because I am now embarassed to live section of this. More on this later.

    The one thing I institute interesting, in this "WiFI'ers vs. Ham's" debate is most of the serious WiFi'ers are hams operating under section 15. I did a poll of the BAWUG (Bay locality Wireless Users Group) and fully 40% on the list. And of the actual mover's and shakers, 3 out of 4 held dilettante radio licenses.

    What this tells me is one simple thing. Their hobby has cancer is is being eaten from within. Those with closed minds who wish to re-live their childhoods of vacumm tubes and duck and cover drills.

    Instead of trying to compare "WiFi'ers" to CB'ers (and how many of you came here from those ranks??) they should live embacing them. The condition of dilettante radio in the United States is a condition of embarassment. Quick, how many of those new and fancy HF digital modes where invented in the U.S.? Europes regulations, and acceptance of alternate modes, is much greater then the U.S. and it shows.

    Wake up dipshits.

    73

    Jeff wb8wka

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4RAF on November 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "The condition of dilettante radio in the United States is a condition of embarassment."

    This is indeed true, along with denial & it is cultural in nature. I acquire institute considerable ham movements in the UK & Australia on the web. Much of the tinkering going on is outside the US (UK, Spain, Poland, Australia, etc...).

    In the end, it really seems silly to acquire to come by a license that cuts your faculty to fully utilize the utility of wifi.

    We acquire a deep 'control' problem, driven by ruling over others, in an attempt to anywise look 'superior'...

    Part 15: No content or WEP-like restrictions, just ERPPart 97: Higher power allowed but content restricted & no plane of "security" allowed

    Who are the CB'ers???

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KF4URO on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend! You can apply the security on top of any modulation schema. I acquire been very interested in playing with different modulation schemes since getting into 802.11 and then back into ham. I need to come by in palpate with that guy with the 10gig horn kits and espy about getting one of those.We need at least a portion of the ham community to lead the away again, in modulations, antennas, and pretty much anything microwave or related. Lets declare packet dead and attain something really titillating dote a network of HAM 802.11 esque nodes that blanket gross cities. Then they would acquire the infrastructure to attain anything. dote anything else in the world for HAM to grow they acquire to stay relevant.   RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <"Ham radio is radio, computers are computers....its simple.."

    You best come by out from behind those vacuum tubes and grasp a examine at some of the radios being advertised in QST.... they examine alot dote computers to me! >

    Maybe you should read the description better, then. They are certainly NOT computers. They utilize computers, but they are not computers. Computers are a tool, nothing more. But using them maliciously, dote the so-called wi-fiers, is against outright that is fine about ham radio. They should welcome them into their ranks only if they reform their ways.

    Ham radio has far, far more to offer than computers ever will. After the hams before us brought computers into the home, they should utilize them as the tools they are.

    Re some of the terminology here, why has the term "wireless" gain back into vogue? That was the term for "radio" 100 years ago... why is it back?

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend! K4JF told us:

    "But using them maliciously, dote the so-called wi-fiers, is against outright that is fine about ham radio."

    Please cite examples when you design accusations about this. attain you even know of any of the community WiFi groups? disclose me exactly what is "malicious" about these WiFi'ers:

    http://andrewhitchcock.org/gallery/2003wirelessfieldday

    Yeap, that is right, those nasty uneducated WiFi'ers had their own province day.

    "We should welcome them into their ranks only if they reform their ways."

    Lets see, hang around with some uneducated extinct men stuck in the 50's, or attain dapper and wintry things with wireless and computers.....

    "Ham radio has far, far more to offer than computers ever will."

    Us vs. them maybe? Wake up, computers are here and are section of the hobby. Ham radio has far far more to offer when it embraces modern technology....

    "Re some of the terminology here, why has the term "wireless" gain back into vogue? That was the term for "radio" 100 years ago... why is it back?"

    Possibly because many of the things these guys are trying to do... message traffic, community networks, ect ect where the roots of ham radio back in its early days. Don't know.

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by KB5WBH on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Would 900mhz live better? Don't know if the right materiel is out there for it, just wondering since 2.4ghz is so Popular with non hams.73Mike   Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by N1YRK on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! As far as the "hacking" and "guerrilla networking" goes, a few people here are using the wrong defenitions of "hack" to jump to a negative judgement on the value of these radio hobbyists. THe author of this article means "hack" in the pre- "WarGames"-movie meaning, which was someone who liked to mess around with technology in non-traditonal ways. I deem that THIS signification has much in common with ham radio. The OTHER signification of "hack" has more to attain with pirate radio, cellphone services thieves, and people who jam others communications - i.e. the "bad guys".

    SO, with that cleared up - A yoke of years ago I started a group called BAWIA - Boston locality Wireless Internet Alliance - http://www.bawia.org - to promote and coordinate activity in the the locality that the author speaks of. However, I acquire institute a very low plane of technical competance in the RF discontinue of things in the group as a whole. They need hams! Ham radio furthermore also needs the enthusiastic, young new blood that this movement offers. So I hearten this cooperation!

    What I find alarming is among these hobbyists there is practically NO esteem given to lightening safety - arrestors are hardly ever seen! Another thing I acquire been trying to educate people on is the RF loss in lengths of cheap cable at microwave frequencies. Many of the antennas sold at computer stores for home networking acquire long lengths of generic cable that is course too thin to give me any aplomb that the diminutive gain given by such a tiny antenna isn't wasted on the 15 feet of flimsy cable attaching it to the WiFi card!

    A fun project for "hacking" on is the MIT roofnet software, which forms a self-organizing "grid" a.k.a. "mesh" network from extinct PCs with a wireless card. espy http://pdos.lcs.mit.edu/roofnet and http://www.bawia.org/meshax

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Lets see, hang around with some uneducated extinct men stuck in the 50's, or attain dapper and wintry things with wireless and computers.....

    WHAT uneducated extinct men in the 50s?? Check out my website - you will find my station (except for the TL-922) outright solid condition and very advanced. Three networked computers are there doing outright kinds of "cool things". BUT, outright legal and above board, not hacking.

    "Ham radio has far, far more to offer than computers ever will."

    <Us vs. them maybe? Wake up, computers are here and are section of the hobby. Ham radio has far far more to offer when it embraces modern technology.... >

    AGAIN, it don't come by any more modern than DSP and solid condition with imbedded microprocessors. Don't criticize from a standpoint of ignorance, you'll come by shot down every time.

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WA2DYA on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! It has no relationship whatsoever to Ham Radio.

    --- CHAS

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4RAF on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "It has no relationship whatsoever to Ham Radio"

    You're right...

    It is progressive, involves understanding RF, uses efficient antennas & is fun to experiment with...

    It is not related to ham radio, circa-2004 !!!

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4RAF on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I furthermore forgot to mention, it has the devout interest of more than 700,000 people under the age of 18...

    Definately not ham radio related...

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <I furthermore forgot to mention, it has the devout interest of more than 700,000 people under the age of 18... >

    I find that VERY hard to believe. It's just computers... a tool, not an avocation.

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <It is progressive, involves understanding RF, uses efficient antennas & is fun to experiment with...

    It is not related to ham radio, circa-2004 !!! >

    Uhh, I deem you acquire it backwards. You are describing ham radio, not wifi hacking. I doubt seriously if any of those understand RF: most computer hobbyists can't even spell it.

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by AE6IP on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I deem this thread relies on too many loaded words and phrases. They should sever through the underbrush and come by to the underlying question.

    Rather than terms dote "WiFi" and "Wardriving", let's talk about the underlying technology.

    "WiFi" is just a marketing appellation for a particular approach to very short range radio networks. These nets, collectively, Fall under the heading of 802.11 -- an IEEE subcommittee, and the standards produced by that subcoommittee.

    WiFi, and its competitor, bluetooth, were originally aimed at very short range networks. Originally, bluetooth was intended for "body area" networks, while WiFi was intended for building locality networks.

    But it is the nature of computing networks that "local area" grows to encompass as big an locality as technically feasible.

    For WiFi, this means attempts to grow beyond the few hundred feet implicit in the original power/antenna designs, and espy how far such networks can live extended.

    There are informal approaches, such as the infamous pringles can antenna, and there are more formal approaches, such as the consortium that is attempting to extend RF nets to the geographic scope that broadband networks currently have.

    Is this apposite to dilettante radio? It could be, but it doesn't acquire to be. If, as I contend, the dilettante radio hobby is now about enjoying anachronistic means of radio communication, notably HF and VHF/FM; then there is no intersection.

    If, on the other hand, if dilettante radio is about being on the RF communications leading edge, as those who dote to cite section 1a of the regs dote to claim, then attempts to extend WiFi are very much fruitful grounds for both dilettante radio hobbiests and for recruiting dilettante radio hobbiests from.

    After all, this is about as QRP as radio communications get, and it is, very much about things dote efficient antenna design, and frequency sharing.

    On the other hand, it is furthermore about what is, in reality, the big gap between the condition of the technique in radio communications, and the condition of the technique as practiced in dilettante radio.

    Which path this hobby takes at this fork in the road is entirely up to the hobbiests. I prognosticate it will proceed in the direction of nostalgia and anachronism -- and that's perefectly fine with me; since that's why I got involved in the hobby.

    The only danger is to proceed down the one path while believing that the hobby is going down the other.

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by AA6YQ on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! A computer is indeed a tool. So is a radio. Both are extensions of basic human capabilities -- computing, managing information, and communicating.

    The combination of wireless connectivity and distributed computing is producing an explosion of new opportunities. Those who supervision for glow-in-the-dark equipment, CW, and HF propagation are free to Enjoy their nostalgia. Those interested in pushing forward are furthermore free to attain so, and ought not live held back by the need to demonstrate mastery of commodity technology.

    Every transceiver built in 1950s incorporated parts made of steel and copper. Did dilettante radio exams of that era require learning of forging steel, or smelting copper? Of course not; such parts were available off-the-shelf, and could not live significantly improved by dilettante practitioners. The extrapolation to today's technology is obvious.

    I wrote my first computer program in 1968, designed my first commercially-released computer in 1972, and started writing dilettante radio software within months of getting my ticket in 1990. I supervision for DXing on the HF bands, and will continue to attain so until I've confirmed every DXCC entity on every company between 160m and 6m, and on phone, CW, and RTTY. I redesigned my SB-220 for 8-band operation before replacing it with an AL-1200, which only fails to glow in the black because its tube is ceramic and its meter lights are long blown. Creating and maintaining the freeware DXLab Suite has taught me a ton about user-driven software development, and helped stimulate my thinking about wireless mesh networks that utilize WiFi and ultra-wideband to create a communications fabric they could never achieve at HF.

    My point is that their hobby encompasses a broad range of interests, and they are not mutually exclusive. You're not personally interested? No problem. Just don't dishearten those who are.

    73,

    Dave, AA6YQ

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! K4JF told us:

    "WHAT uneducated extinct men in the 50s?? Check out my website - you will find my station (except for the TL-922) outright solid condition and very advanced."

    Your right, the mediocre ham in the 1950's at least built section of his station... just dote the mediocre WiFi hacker these days. Your station, while nice, looks entirely storebought.

    "BUT, outright legal and above board, not hacking."

    You don't even know what hacking means. I am HONORED to live called a hacker. Means I acquire a brain and I dote to experiment and learn how things work.

    Or attain you affect black hat hacking? OK, for the second time, gratify document the accusations you are making.

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KD7ZOX on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Well, I'm section of the "Computer Crowd," being 15, and I acquire scholarly a lot abot networking, ecryption, 802.11b, 802.11g, and even the days of Token Ring, which uses coax cable to network(although I despise it as it is incredible unstable and slow). I'd dote to deem I acquire fine ethics. I attain not hack into others computers, although I am perfectly capable of it. My friend Al, KE7AUK, is furthermore someone who is fine with networks, and i got him interested in Ham Radio. It seems there might live a pattern here... I acquire gotten my friend Jeremy interested, he works at IBM, and he's head of the network staff there. outright of these people are fine people, and acquire fine ethics. I deem many people nowadays don't acquire enough faith in the newer generations.

    KD7ZOX

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <You're "right, the mediocre ham in the 1950's at least built section of his station... just dote the mediocre WiFi hacker these days. Your station, while nice, looks entirely storebought." >

    And you built your wifi boxes? What kind of setup to you acquire for making the ICs?

    I acquire built many computers myself, absolutely no more difficult than integrating the various components of the station. BTW, the computer you espy in the station photo (one of 3) is a homebrew, so I know what I am comparing. furthermore acquire built several rigs over the years, both kit and my design (one of the kits is visible in the photo - the TenTec 6-meter rig.)

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <You don't even know what hacking means. I am HONORED to live called a hacker. Means I acquire a brain and I dote to experiment and learn how things work>

    I know EXACTLY what hacking means. I acquire been in involved in home computers for over 25 years, built my own back in early 80s. Ever read the bespeak "Hackers"?

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend! K4JF told us:

    "And you built your wifi boxes?"

    Actually, yes. At least the software image for my WRT54-G's using the SVEASOFT and EWRT distro's (based on the LinkSys GPL code). furthermore quite a number of antennas as well as one amplifier. I noticed you even bought your Windom, which is a simple wire antenna (one of which I homebrewed for my HF ham station).

    "What kind of setup to you acquire for making the ICs?"

    Yeap, figures. You'd live the appliance operator in the 1950's who would furthermore asked the ham hacker of that era if he had refined the copper and mined the iron for the homebrew rigs of that era.

    "Also acquire built several rigs over the years, both kit and my design (one of the kits is visible in the photo - the TenTec 6-meter rig.)"

    Good for you. Then why outright the basely accusations against hams that want to experiment with WiFi? You realize twice I acquire asked you to document your claims of law breaking, and twice you acquire ignored them.

    Bottom line, if ham radio wants to survive, it has to live relevent to today's society. "WiFi hacking" and alliances with WiFi community networking groups can proceed a long course into making this happen.

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend! And you built your wifi boxes?"

    Actually, yes. At least the software image for my WRT54-G's using the SVEASOFT and EWRT distro's (based on the LinkSys GPL code).

    Uhh, that's writing software (which I acquire done - and marketed). Not quite the same.

    "Also quite a number of antennas as well as one amplifier. I noticed you even bought your Windom, which is a simple wire antenna (one of which I homebrewed for my HF ham station)."

    Who said I bought the Windom? I've built quite a few wire and other antennas, including helical, even. But a board dote this should not come by personal, so let's stop that.==================================================

    "Bottom line, if ham radio wants to survive, it has to live relevent to today's society. "WiFi hacking" and alliances with WiFi community networking groups can proceed a long course into making this happen."

    Bottom line, they want people in this hobby/service who are inclined to operate within the rules. If "being apposite to today's society" means they must accept society's current attitude that laws are meaningless if I don't want to follow them (as in "Who are you to disclose me to unhurried down in the school zone?") then they acquire only anarchy ahead ("the hacker ethic"). They acquire had some much people gain in from the other lawless group, but acquire furthermore had some actual problems from some of them who attain not want to follow the law. They don't need more.

    As I said before, I welcome outright who are really interested in the hobby/service. But only if they procedure to operate within established laws and norms. I really don't understand why that is such a barrier.

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Another point: This is a service as well as a hobby. Often, in an emergency situation, they are working shoulder-to-shoulder with law enforcement personnel. (Done it many times.) How effectual will they live if it gets known that they welcome lawbreakers into their ranks, without at least requiring reform?   RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend! k4jf claimed for the fourth time:

    "Bottom line, they want people in this hobby/service who are inclined to operate within the rules."

    and later said:

    "How effectual will they live if it gets known that they welcome lawbreakers into their ranks, without at least requiring reform?"

    I've now asked you I believe 3 times to warrant this statement. You protest you don't want to come by personal, yet you proceed on and on with the accusations. I'm not adage your wrong (or right), I'm just asking you to demonstrate your not plenary of shit and just a techno-rascist who doesn't want anyone in the hobby that doesn't deem the course they do.

    But it certain seems that way. I guess your lucky you didn't race into someone dote yourself back when you were playing CB back in the late 70's... not that you where doing anything illegal, but they attain know how outright those WiFi'ers are lawbreakers, just dote those CB'ers where, don't we?

    BTW, SOFTWARE is where radio is... not to protest I haven't designed the hardware (have a section 15 900mhz XE1202 radio in for testing for certification now).

    BTW2, you didn't protest "windom", you said "carolina windom" which is a storebought custom design windom, which RadioWorks holds an exclusive license to produce/advertize under that name.

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend! K4JF told us all:

    "You are describing ham radio, not wifi hacking. I doubt seriously if any of those understand RF: most computer hobbyists can't even spell it."

    Obviously your spell checker is broken then.

    Take a few of these web pages to your next ham meeting, and disclose me how many of the hams understand what these "wifi hackers" are doing:

    http://trevormarshall.com/waveguides.htmhttp://www.geocities.com/lincomatic/homebrewant.htmlhttp://martybugs.net/wireless/biquad/http://www.wireless.org.au/~jhecker/helix/http://www.netscum.com/~clapp/wireless.htmlhttp://www.olotwireless.net/catala/Building.htm

    and on and on...

    They certain loom to know how to spell RF.

    Jim, you really need to come by out of the house more. It is a dauntless new world out there, and at least in advancing the condition of the technique on 2.4ghz, ham's are being given a race for the money by the WiFi hacker's.

    I for one deem they should embrace them, rather then shun them dote you look to advocate. Of course they need to follow the rules, that goes without saying, but you've yet to cite any specific infractions you acquire observed.

    All barbs aside, ham radio embraced "cb radio", dote it or not, back in the late 70's. There is no comparsion between the "WiFi hacker" and the CB'ers of the 70's. WiFi hackers are far more technically knowledgable then the CB'ers of the 70's and quite frankly, most hams today (when it comes to microwaves).

    They would live a much asset to the hobby.

    And honestly, you shouldn't feel threatned by them. I doubt if many would live interested in voice or digital on 80 meters, they acquire a specific goal in mind, and that goal is not ragchewing.

    But they are different then you. You'll need to deal with that.

    73

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <Of course they need to follow the rules, that goes without saying, but you've yet to cite any specific infractions you acquire observed. >

    Thanks for the websites - they prove my point! The first one I looked up had disclaimers that protest this antenna I am describing is in violation of FCC rules, don't attain it, etc., etc., etc. Kinda reminds me of the illegal CB linears sold exclusively to CBers with a big label "Illegal for CB use".

    Again - Amateurs are well-known (if imperfect) for self-policing, and they welcome outright with an interest, IF and only IF, they abstain from illegal use. And since they conform on that point, where is the problem?

      RE: Where Does WiFi Fall into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend! The problem is you said they where lawbreakers, yet you acquire repeatedly failed to provide one single example...

    Do you even acquire a clue? attain you know what 15.23 even says? How about the recent liberalization of the section 15 rules to allow coalesce and match?

    Jesus christ, you are exactly what is wrong with the hobby. Self rightous assholes who scare away anyone with half a brain.

    I give up. Enjoy yourself.

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